push/ pull vs all pull

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

i have never played a push/pull every guitar that i have had was all pull. is there any differance in tone or is it just a mechanical issue ? the reason i'm asking is that one day ( not soon ) when i start looking at other guitars should that be a factor and if so why

thanks
calvin

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Now ya did it, Calvin!

Most think PPs sound better but are heavier, more complex, etc. The true PP fan endures these issues and enjoys the sound.

Some will say their All Pull sounds as good.

You will hear great music made on both.

The only way to know if one's right for you is to own one.
If it's not you can sell it and recover most of your investment, maybe more.

That's what I did. I ended up keeping both types.

This belongs in "Pedal Steel" so I'm moving it.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Here's what Buddy had to say recently about his old push/pull, which he used for some of the songs on the album "Time", by Ray price...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I played one for 4 years, and the sound was wonderful. I had to get rid of it, though. The mechanical aspects of it drove me crazy. I know that some people can adjust them correctly, but I'm not one of them.

You don't have to be a great player to get a great tone out of an Emmons push-pull. I think that's why they were so popular in their day, and why many people still enjoy playing them.

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Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

are they still being made today or did all the mfg go to all pull ?

calvin

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

This is my answer to anyone wishing to hear it. (skip if you don't)
The answer lays in: What you are going to do with it. Club? Studio? Road? Just learning?
Asking what is better is the same as asking what kind of car is better, what kind of food is best, are trucks better than airplanes?

The answer is in the answer to: "what is it going to be used for". Some ways the P-P is the only answer, other ways the All Pull is the better way to go. If you can't figure out how to work anything mechanical, you can't change a flat tire on your car, then by all means get a all pull, or switch to standard guitar.
\ If you want and need the last ounce of incredible tone for some reason,(most don't) you will stand a good/better chance of getting it with a good P-P. Many folks like the pedal feel more on a P-P guitar, some don't.
To most folks , it seems, tone isn't all that important.

You yourself have to decide what is important to you, the all pull guitars out number the P-P guitars about fifty to one. So getting a good P-P is pretty hard in its self. But may be worth the hunt, if what it does for you is important.
If you are just a beginner, or not in a competitive enviroment, I'd recommend an "All Pull" guitar. There are very few folks that need the qualities that the P-P has to offer.
We sell many steel guitars a week, most always the "All Pull" models. But every once in a while a fanatic comes along--------> and understands the differences,

Now, since you don't know, and have to ask, I'd say you need an All-Pull guitar. There are several that sound great, and play great, a few don't. Be careful in your selection. Factory and dealer back up warrantees up might be important to you, parts availability and weight may be important to you.
Don't buy anything that parts are hard to get if you are going to use your guitar as a serious player guitar.

So see,,,,,,, the correct guitar for you is the one that fills your needs the best, it may be either P-P or All Pull. It is up to you, not the guitar.
Just decide what qualities you need/want and go for it!!!!!!!!

Bobbe
Steel Guitar Nashville
615 822 5555

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 24 December 2005 at 12:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 24 December 2005 at 01:03 PM.]

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 24 December 2005 at 01:53 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

There's also a new beast called a Zum Steel Hybrid. I just got one and it is out of this world. Tunes "like a push pull" on primary raises, otherwise like an all pull. 100% uncompromised tone and easier mechanics than a p/p.

Do a search on "Zum Hybrid" and you'll get opinions more expert than mine. Hearing John Hughey and Randy Beavers play one(not at the same time) sold me. I will be starting a thread with some photos when I get them back (analog, you know).

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 24 December 2005 at 01:40 PM.]

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

thanks to all,
i have had 3 guitars thus far and as i said they were all pull so i guess my best bet would be to find one , sit down and play it then decide, i was thinking that my next one might be along the lines of and MSA d-10 or something like that at any rate it will be awhile before i buy another one i just wanted to get the pros and cons before i started looking. right now i'm very happy with my Zum s-10

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ZumSteel

Tom Quinn · Posted 25 Dec 2005 7:30 am

I have a 65/66 bolton D-10 and have very few tuning issues with it. The pickups on these earlier Emmons guitars have less winds -- mine test at about 15k, and I know another guy who has 14k pickups.

Combine that with the design of these guitars, and you get a clean, fat tone.

If you play guitar, the diference between a p/p and an all-pull is the same as a stock Strat trem and a Floyd Rose.

Personally, I don't think any all-pull guitar will ever sound like a p/p, but some people don't care, and that's fine.

Last, vintage Emmons guitars are expensive if they are from the 60s and are very collectable. To me, they are the same as a 59 Les Paul sunburst -- not as well designed maybe as a new guitar, but nothing can touch them for tone and "vibe."

bob grossman · From: Visalia CA USA

Yes, a can of worms...

Tom Bradshaw has rebuilt several P/P's to all-pull...probably a sacrilege to some of you.

I've known Tom since high school days and he has refurbished a lot of guitars. He once mentioned an Emmons P/P that had the best tone he had ever heard from a steel. He went on to put an all-pull changer in it. He says the tone was the same.

I hope to not quote Mr. Emmons incorrectly, but I seem to recall that of all the P/P's he had played, only two "had that magic sound."

I remember when it first came out, and for its time, was the probably the most versatile thing available; raise and lower any string. Also, I think it was before knee levers and there were three pedals on E9 and five on C6.

With the almost infinite number of changes possible, will some one who plays a P/P be sorry later when additional changes are added? Ain't easy on a P/P.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Sometimes changing a copedent on a PP is a major chore, sometimes it's no problem at all. It depends on the tuning desired and what you're changing it from.

If a player is an experimenter, he might find a PP somewhat of a mechanical challenge, in terms of the amount of undercarriage disassembly and reassembly needed. But if the player has matured and settled down in regard to his tuning, no guitar out there quite matches the tone and feel. And the collectibility and desireability of the 60's models pretty much undisputed.

Those players fortunate enough to be able to have two guitars can have an AP for tuning experimentation, and a PP for "what it is." I believe that's what Big E does.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Well, changing a P-P Emmons to an All-Pull does change the tone, drastically. Good or not is in the ear of the beholder.

And, you show me a P-P Emmons that you don't think has "that magic tone", after a half hour with it, I'll show you it does.

Not to discredit anyone, but I feel that I have had many times more of these guitars run through my hands than anyone. Most of them I have listened to and studied very intently.

As far as changing set-ups on these guitars, when approached correctly, it can be pretty easy to accomplish, any change can. You will need the correct parts and the correct tools. All easy to obtain.

As far as the years of collectability go, the early ones are on top, however, all are getting there fast, even the '74s, (the most numorous). As far a tone goes, they are all "on top'. I personally prefer the '70 to '72 full back guitars, I find the qualities these guitars fulfill my personal needs. I have three personal ones,but then, there are NO bad ones. Just poorly maintained ones, along with those that have been damaged by poor service. But this can apply to any guitar.

But as I stated previously, I don't recommend these guitars for everyone.

Anyone want the "Best of both worlds"?
I have the '66 Emmons P-P that Paul Franklin converted to 'All-Pull" for Mr."E" himself, and at a very fair price. This guitar plays incrediblely well, and should be a great collectable. Available for less than the price of a regular P-P of the same year.

Bobbe

Buck Dilly · From: Branchville, NJ, USA * R.I.P.

I have three. But have owned two others. The three that were very well set up (by Mike Cass) have had few problems, play in tune very well, and sound better than any other instruments that I have played. Q-Are there problems? A-Nothing I could not deal with at a gig or in the studio, in a few minutes. (But I have cursed a lot on the process.)

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Push Pull Emmons: D-10; D-12; U-12.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

It all comes down to who sets up the guitar and how well its maintained. A Mike Cass or Bobby Bowman, or Brian Adams Push/Pull will play impecably. JD Manesse's push/pull plays like a dream. It all depends on who sets them up and how well they are maintained. As far as tone goes, it doesn't get any better. Some people on the forum believe that all tone is in the hands. I don't. I've seen and played too many guitar and amp set ups to hear the difference. Listen to "Precious Jewel" on Bobbe Seymour's live album. Its push/pull heaven. I played a p/p for two years. I never had a problem with it.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 25 December 2005 at 03:16 PM.]

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

Also...listen to Dicky Overbeys' "HonkeyTonk Memories". Its the most 'in your face' P/P tone I've ever heard on record.

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Well after reading this thread I think I'll take my old bolt-on out for New Years this year. I haven't had it set up in quite a while and it needs to be played. Like Herb said, once you've got your set-up down and on the guitar, the Emmons p/p is as reliable as any guitar with tone to the bone.

Charles Curtis · Posted 26 Dec 2005 6:21 am

I had an older PP before I purchased my Emmons All Pull; and IMO this guitar has a fantastic tone. It's a lacquer guitar that Ron just happened to have on hand (I was going to quit trying to play but got the bug again), and IMO I've never heard a better sounding guitar. I can only imagine what it would be with a real musician playing it. At one jam I attended, I didn't have mine there but of all the different brands that I heard that day, IMO, I liked a D10 Carter that one musician played. Looking back I wished that I had asked what type pick-ups he was using.

Bill Simmons · From: Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.

I totally agree with Kevin...the key regarding p/p's is how they are adjusted! ONLY have someone who has a proven track record adjust your p/p! However, once they are adjusted correctly by a pro they will play very easy and hardly ever give you any problems plus sound incredible with ever increasing value...again, the problems arise when we start hacking away on the undercarriages as they do have their unique way for adjusting.

Personally, I will never attempt working on the p/p's...Tommy Cass along with the fellows mentioned above KNOW the p/p's uniqueness. Tommy Cass has my '68 Emmons probably looking and playing better than when it was new.

Although MOST of your sound is in the hands, the other componets such as what steel you are playing, type of amp, speakers, effects, room, strings, type of pickup, etc HAVE a big impact on MY sound. For me, my Emmons p/p still has its special tone, playability etc that my other steels don't have nor should they all try to sound like an Emmons p/p. Thank God not all my electric guitars sound alike but have their own unique qualities and sound...Just a thought...

[This message was edited by Bill Simmons on 26 December 2005 at 08:32 AM.]

Waisznor · From: Berlin, Germany

I´m not a professional steel player and not a good technician. So I don´t understand why the mechanical aspects of a push pull steel drives somebody crazy. I had different all pull steels and I think it is a lot easyer to adjust a P/P steel perfectly. OK, it needs more time to change the copedent, especially when the steel is full loaded. But in all, this sytem is more logical than an all pull system.
If you are sceptical about push pull steels, buy one, take apart all pieces of the steel, clean it und put all parts together with the help of the book "Methology and Practice in Pedal Steel Guitar". You would be surprised how easy and logical it is to hold this sytem in tune, provided you like the sound of a push pull steel. And.......you don´t need Mike Cass, Bobby Bowman, Brian Adams or other push pull specialists to have fun with this steels.

Horst

[This message was edited by Waisznor on 26 December 2005 at 04:46 PM.]

[This message was edited by Waisznor on 26 December 2005 at 05:00 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Horst! Incredible post! You are 100% correct.
Lets face it, if a guy can't learn to tune, how can he ever expect to learn to play. Playing a steel guitar is a lot harder than learning how to tune a P-P.
All-Pull steel guitars have there own set of problems, some of them serious. Most of the P-P problems are only in the heads of those that don't understand them.
I love all steel guitars, but to degrade the push pull is to perpetuate a false myth.
Many new players that read this forum will listen to the folks that have never lived with and enjoyed the benefits of these marvelous guitars. The folks that had one that was poorly adjusted for a week or two, now they claim to bve an athority on the subject. This is a shame.
I tried several Emmons P-P guitars from '64 to '69 and it took a while to warm up to the guitar, but when I did,
As far as the mechanics go, I prefer the P-P to any all-pull to work on. But you need the right tools/parts.
I'm glad the Promat is available for those of us that love this good working and sounding system.
However, they aren't for everyone.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

AND! It doesn't have to have a "specialist" to mantain it, anyone can learn easily, if they apply themselvs. It is very simple, I'll show anyone that cares to learn. Give me 20 min.
Bobbe

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

sorry joey, i did not intend to start a hornets nest. i was just looking for a little information

calvin

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ZumSteel

John Davis · From: Cambridge, U.K.

Calvin here is my two penny worth, I have played p/p for over 30 years and love them to bits! but recently bought a "Blonde" Zum from Tommy Cass, I found straight away I could play things faster on this because of the different type mechanism, is this a good thing?? I don`t know?? speed is`ent everything some of the nice`st things I have heard Mr.Emmons play was when those strings were getting stretched real slow,(and he seems to be able to play as fast as he wants to on anything!) tuning either types not an issue if you get a Peterson tuner.I bet the Bobster has them!!

richard burton · From: Britain

Bobbe's nailed it:
The PushPull is mechanically very simple, while the All Pull is a mechanical improvement in that there is less slack in the pull train, and copedent changes are a walk in the park.

However, once a player has settled on his copedent, and isn't likely to change it, on a properly adjusted PushPull the mechanical inferiority to a All Pull is barely noticeable, but the tonal superiority is

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