tone on the upper frets

Marc Weller · Post by **Marc Weller** » 18 Dec 2005 8:22 am

My rig is a Williams with Truetones through either a Vibrosonic Reverb or an older Deluxe Reverb depending on the size of the bar. I'm very happy with my tone up to about the 12th fret. Above that, my instrument(or, more likely, the player) seems to lack sustain. Any of you fellows with sweet chimey tone on the high notes care to share your secrets ?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 18 Dec 2005 9:02 am

My "tone" and "sustain" fell off above about the 12th fret with a Fender Twin Reverb that was in tip top condition (I was doing amp repair at the time and the Twin Reverb's were the main amp I saw).

I "fixed" my tone and sustain when I bought a Peavey Session 500 amp (Peavey's "new" steel amp at the time) and quit using the Fender. I had even put in a 15" JBL K-130 which helped the low end but still had problems in the upper frets with the Fender. [This message was edited by Jack Stoner on 18 December 2005 at 09:03 AM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 18 Dec 2005 1:08 pm

I'm just happy if I get the note and it soundsl like it's in tune, I don't even think about tone above the 15th fret.

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 18 Dec 2005 1:40 pm

The volume pedal can make a difference. I use a Goodrich L10 pedal with a built-in buffer amp. While on the lower frets it gives a much better sound than a normal passive pedal, on the high frets it sounds worse. When you pick a string at a high fret sustain is short.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 18 Dec 2005 3:27 pm

JMO As you go further up the neck, you are playing on a much shorter string as you ascend, therefore the string will not vibrate as long as it does on the lower frets. More bar vibrato works for me to make up the difference, plus add some volume to your pedal. Listen to John Hughey.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 18 Dec 2005 9:17 pm

Marc, How well does it sustain unplugged above the 12th fret?? No really? Not trying to be a wise guy. Just my experience. If your guitar does not sustain good unplugged. It will never sustain very well no matter how many times you change pickups amps, volume pedals etc etc.

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 18 Dec 2005 10:27 pm

Hi Bobby,
I tested this some time ago with a friend and his Emmons push/pull.
When using a normal 500 K pedal, the strings "sing" up in Hughey-land.
When using the L10K pedal, on the moment of picking the string, you get a sort of a 'snap', after which the tone decays fast. The strings don't "sing". My Sho-Bud seems to sustain fine on the high frets, but the effect of the L10K pedal is the same as when we A/B it on the Emmons. Haven't tried another volume pedal on my Bud yet.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 19 Dec 2005 7:08 am

Different instruments will have a different level of "sustain" at different regions of the fretboard. Even instruments by the same manufacturer will have differences.

One highly esteemed west coast picker recently demoed this to me re two of his EMMONS instruments.

The FSA (Frequency Spectrum Analyzer) measurements on 31 PSGs started two weeks ago at Jim Palenscar's steel shop in Oceanside CA. show great differences on "famous" and "not so famous" instruments re the sustain function.

The FSA tests show differences in harmonic content, and harmonic content vs. time, when the pickups are loaded with 10 Meg, 500K, 250K, etc...again, different pickup structures behave differently. All pickups are not created equal.

Then there is the matter of the bar and its motion. I received a phone call from a (the?) top PSG picker after he received his Zirc bar...here is the jist of the conversation:

"I play a lot at home with no amp. When I play with a ___ bar above the 13th fret it seems to sustain more than when I play there with the Zirc bar...why would that be?"

...try this for me and see what happens...use each bar at the chosen fret(s), do not move/vibrate the bars and tell me the results.

"..the difference is gone when I don't move the bars"

The reason is that the Zirc bars, by measurement, are/were 10 or more times as smooth as the metal bar that he was using. Moving the bar in a scrubbing motion (not rolling it) was like a violin bow on the strings...with more or less resin (roughness).

There is a difference in the sound of highs obtained from "unloading" the pickup, and highs obtained from tweaking up the EQ/presence, et al. Some of it shows up in the attack when you excite the string. Some pickers are more sensitive to it than others.

One more of the tone traps is pot pedal related. If you place a 500K pot pedal directly across the pickup, ypu will damp some of the pickups highs. If you then place an amp input across the pot pedal, you will further damp some of the highs, to the extent that the pedal is activated. If the pedal is 500K and the amp input is 500k then if the pedal is all the way on, the pickup load is 250k = not too good for highs. some common amps are even lower input impedance than 500K. Most effects are also a loading problem.

And then, there is the cable capacitance issue...keep them short.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 19 December 2005 at 07:43 AM.]

Bill Cutright · Post by **Bill Cutright** » 19 Dec 2005 12:33 pm

I agree with Bobby.
Of the 5 steels I've owned, the upper register clarity (and volume)of my (sorely missed) PP was 10% better than anything else I've played. I think that's at the core of any debate regarding the trade-off of that design. When compared to the ease of the newer guitars, yes it pretty much drives like a tank, but, man can it shoot...

Joseph Meditz · Post by **Joseph Meditz** » 19 Dec 2005 1:52 pm

Hi Marc,

My dos centavos:

I would try lowering your pickup, especially on the treble side. The closer the magnets are to the strings the more energy they will absorb. If the pickup is angled so it is closer to the treble strings you might want to try leveling it.

Joe

Marc Weller · Post by **Marc Weller** » 22 Dec 2005 10:54 pm

Thank you everyone for your input. Tonite at my gig I tried Jim Bob's suggestion of more vibrato / pedal on the higher notes. More specifically, I attacked the higher notes more aggressively with the pedal backed off a bit, then brought in the pedal and vibrato. Definitely helped on the high stuff. I do notice that my pickups are pretty close to my strings. Definitely closer than on my Telecaster. What distance would you guys recommend. Again, I'm using Truetones on a Williams 400 Series.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 23 Dec 2005 3:23 pm

Marc, I also play a Willy with single coil pups. I set mine just about 1/8 inch below the strings, with the bass strings just a tad lower. I have NO problems with the upper frets. Hope this helps.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 Dec 2005 4:04 pm

I used to have a Fender lap steel that just died above the 15th fret. It was so bad that even other musicians noticed it. "What happened to your tone on those high notes?" It was the guitar.

It's easy to see how other factors could come into play, though. Compare another pedal steel with the same scale length into your same volume pedal and amp.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
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Gary Ulinskas · Post by **Gary Ulinskas** » 24 Dec 2005 6:30 am

From an earlier post on this subject, another member (I think it was David L. Donald) mentioned the idea of lifting your left hand fingers on the back side of the bar off the strings. Tone changes a bit, and I have to press a bit harder on the bar sometimes to eliminate buzzing, but it sure helps the sustain on my old MSA.[This message was edited by Gary Ulinskas on 24 December 2005 at 06:34 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 24 Dec 2005 8:21 am

String distance makes a huge differance, and as stated you can tell with the guitar unplugged.

Changing from a Twin to a Peavey would make no sustain difference at all, except in the imagination of the listener, unless the first amp had old filter caps or bad tubes. Amps don't make a string sustain...

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Dec 2005 10:13 am

New Strings, probably #1.

1/8"is too close. 3/32 3/16-" is what I've found a little friendlier.

If you have to ask how far into Hugheyland you can safely go, you're already to far into it.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 December 2005 at 10:14 AM.]

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 27 Dec 2005 1:05 am

I've been using the Goodrich L10K volume pedal and have noticed a loss of sustain in the higher registers but never thought about the pedal. I've got all kinds of volume pedals but just use whatever is convenient anymore. Lately I've been practicing at home with an old Emmons p/p with the Emmons volume pedal and it doesn't seem to loose any sustain or highs no matter how high I play. That Goodrich pedal might be the problem all along. I never knew about the buffer in those pedals.

Thom Ferman · Post by **Thom Ferman** » 27 Dec 2005 11:21 am

I happened to be watching the first Jay Dee Maness video this morning and he was asked about his left hand technique above the 12th fret. Seems he (at times) lifts some, or all of his fingers behind the bar to get a little livlier sound up there. And this is on his golden voiced '69 PP's. I haven't tried this yet but am interested to see what happens. Anyone else do this?

Thom[This message was edited by Thom Ferman on 27 December 2005 at 11:22 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Dec 2005 12:58 pm

Part of being a great musician (along with playing great), is knowing how to extract the best from the equipment you're using. Playing technique, picks and bar being used, and the amp and how it's set, all go together to maximize what comes out of the speaker. This is why a great player can sound great on a rather mediocre rig, and a mediocre player can still sound rather mediocre playing on a great rig.

Playing the guitar is not just "playing the guitar". It's the 101 adjustments that we make while we're playing the guitar.

Don Barnhardt · Post by **Don Barnhardt** » 27 Dec 2005 8:56 pm

Curiosity got the best of me. I just now swapped my L-10 pedal with the old Sho-Bud pedal that I use with my lap steel and it works ten times better on the high frets. I still want my L-10 below the 15th fret.

Chick Donner · Post by **Chick Donner** » 28 Dec 2005 1:01 pm

In the FWIW department - - -

I have mentioned to several friends that I have needed to relearn how to play above the 13th since I went to a rack mounted Stewart World 1.6 amp. I was talking with John Hughey about that and he confirmed that going to the Stewart (or like amp) will cause that. There is NO difference in how the guitar plays above or below anymore (that I can tell, on my D-12 PP's), and THAT takes some geetting used to.

Even on my Webb amps, it took a different picking technique up high. Last weekend (or 2) ago, I took out my Nashville 112, since it was a small place and I had to haul a ways, and, what a difference.[This message was edited by Chick Donner on 28 December 2005 at 01:02 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 28 Dec 2005 1:07 pm

I had the same problem with my old MSA about a year ago, the sustain at the high end of the neck just died. I discovered there was some kind of deposit underneith the strings, inbetween the strings and fingers. Probably fine particles of metal from wear on the strings, or fingers, I don't know, but it was there. Cleaned it out and it was fine, sustain was back. It reappears after a few months, I clean it out again.

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 29 Dec 2005 5:04 am

I've noticed that I get better sustain and tone in the high register if I pick the strings closer to the changer than I do in the lower register. Above the 15th fret you've got a pretty short length of string left to vibrate and it seems to kill the sustain and tone as your bar hand nears your picking hand.

Marc Weller · Post by **Marc Weller** » 30 Dec 2005 10:52 pm

Switching from sliding to rolling style vibrato seems to be helping my upper register sustain. Have any of you found this to be helpful?

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 31 Dec 2005 1:36 am

Jim wrote:

Amps don't make a string sustain...

I think that I will have to slightly disagree.
The amp ofcourse doesn't make up the major part of any instruments sustain, but I think that I'll definetely have more sustain the louder I'm playing (regardless of guitar, bass or steel).

I think that this is due to the "feedback" factor of the strings "hearing" the speaker and therefore keeping up vibrating longer, but it's quite possible that there may be even a "classical" feedback component there, adding to the sustain.

Not to hi-jack the tread and send it in a completely different direction, I'd say that I will have more sustain in the upper frets while rolling the vibrato, than I would have when sliding the vibrato in a more bluesy fashion.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

[This message was edited by Klaus Caprani on 31 December 2005 at 01:41 AM.]