MSA Classic help!

Michael Hummel · Post by **Michael Hummel** » 18 Feb 2019 9:36 am

I recently made some trades and ended up with a nice MSA Classic S-10 from about 1974. 5 pedals, 4 knees. Cosmetically everything was fine, but the mechanics hadn't been well-maintained.

I gritted my teeth, took the plunge, and took everything apart. I even took the changer apart, soaked everything in naphtha, lubricated with 3-in-1 silicone lubricant, and put it all back together (miraculously!)

Most things are great. But I have a couple of frustrating issues I just can't fathom.

1) The E lower lever (RKR) seems to have a stop halfway (although there IS no stop installed). When engaging the lever, I can feel a point about halfway where something (changer?) seems to bump and then I have to continue the travel to the stop to get the full lowers. I have inspected everything in the chain (reverser, rods, etc) and I can't figure this out. It's not a big deal except the last half of the travel requires some more effort than the first part. There is no movement of the raise fingers at any time during this pull.

2) When I got the guitar, P4 (the one after the C pedal) was not connected, so I thought it would be nice to have it pull 6 and 3 down a half-step to get an instant minor chord. I can't seem to lower 3 at all! The lower on 6 works, but halfway down I can hear the raise come in so the pitch goes down, then up, then down again.

I thought my thorough cleaning would take care of these issues. Do I have some defective fingers in the changer? I've checked that the tuners are not overtightened (C pedal for instance) so I don't know what is going on.

Any advice appreciated. Including something better to do with the 5th pedal (P4) I have successfully set up P0 to do the Franklin change so that was cool.

Thanks guys.
Mike

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Feb 2019 5:00 pm

I suspect the "bump" you're feeling is caused by the E lowers not being timed properly. The 8th string finger starting to move is probably what you're feeling. You should attempt to make sure that the fingers for both strings start moving at the same time.

The other problem with lowering strings 3&6 is usually caused by the lower-return spring being too tight. (That's not a popular change, so you don't hear about that problem very much.) You need a lighter return spring on there, and it also wouldn't hurt to go to a .0115 or .012 string for your third if you intend on keeping that change.

2) When I got the guitar, P4 (the one after the C pedal) was not connected, so I thought it would be nice to have it pull 6 and 3 down a half-step to get an instant minor chord.

By the way, did you know that that same minor you're looking for is available by using the B&C pedals, and backing up 2 frets?

p.s. make sure your changer looks exactly like this one when mo pedals or levers are activated. (All the fingers must line up perfectly.)

One more thing...if you have any of those "bullet-shaped thingies" on the rods near the fingers, make sure they're at least 3/8" from the fingers.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 18 Feb 2019 5:47 pm

Donny is spot on with his thoughts on this one..
For many years, I dropped both 3 and 6 a FULL tone with several different MSA Classic guitars using an .011 third.. Something is simply not right with your rod/ bellcrank/stop set up.. You might want to try the very bottom hole on the bellcrank and the changer.. Also, make sure you have 4 hole bellcranks, NOT the 2 hole ones found on some MSA guitars. those are usually used only on raises.. The problems you described have to be due to improper adjustment/placement.. Those old MSA changers are among the very best ever built .. they don't break, wear out, or even seem to grow old.. they are bulletproof and problem free...

Only other thing that might be a problem is the lower springs.. I have had to stretch them on some changes on MSA guitars, or increase tension on them for other changes.. Mike Yahl makes a nifty adjustable return spring adjustment bracket for MSA, and they are well loved by those that have installed them...
If you ever want to drive down to NY state, I'll have that MSA humming for you in an hour or two, no charge... bob

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Feb 2019 7:06 pm

Bob Carlucci wrote: If you ever want to drive down to NY state, I'll have that MSA humming for you in an hour or two, no charge... bob

I salute you, Bob!

Michael Hummel · Post by **Michael Hummel** » 19 Feb 2019 5:04 am

Thanks guys for all of the great suggestions. I do observe that the lower fingers for 3 and 6 move at the same time and at the same rate, so I don't *think* that is the problem.

I checked that the fingers are all lined up when in neutral position, but I will check again after messing around with the tuners some.

Yes, I know the minor with B+C; I was just trying to find something useful to do with P4. If you have better ideas, I am all ears!

And Bob, I can't thank you enough for the offer to look it over. These days Canadians are a bit wary of crossing the border. I've heard stories of people getting grilled by the agents for no reason. Years ago I remember driving down to Boston with a van full of enough gear for an entire band, and the U.S. agent just smiled and wished me luck getting it back into Canada, but these days it seems to be the other way around. The pendulum swings...

Mike

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 19 Feb 2019 8:34 am

All good thoughts. One thing that I've found is that frequently the lowering hole closest to the changer axle cannot be used due to- as Donny and Bob have both said- too much lower return spring pressure being too close to the pivot point of the changer scissors causing it to raise while attempting to lower. Since pre-2000 MSA's did not have adjustable spring pressures I rarely use the 2nd lower hole. One thing that can be done is to spread out a few coils of the lowering spring by separating a coil or two by using a side-cutter between the coils but not cutting anything.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 19 Feb 2019 8:41 am

Jim Palenscar wrote:All good thoughts. One thing that I've found is that frequently the lowering hole closest to the changer axle cannot be used due to- as Donny and Bob have both said- too much lower return spring pressure being too close to the pivot point of the changer scissors causing it to raise while attempting to lower. Since pre-2000 MSA's did not have adjustable spring pressures I rarely use the 2nd lower hole. One thing that can be done is to spread out a few coils of the lowering spring by separating a coil or two by using a side-cutter between the coils but not cutting anything.

What Jim said.. I have had to do exactly that on MSA steels, and using a side cutter IS the best way.
These days however, the adjustable return spring bracket is the way to go.. So easy to fine tune , and make adjustments for different string gauges etc... bob

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 19 Feb 2019 8:48 am

If you ever need parts for a MSA Classic, Al Brisco in Canada is the man to contact.
I re-plumbed a ZB and did it primarily with MSA Classic parts procured from Al.

Erv

Michael Hummel · Post by **Michael Hummel** » 19 Feb 2019 9:22 am

Bob/Jim: I don't exactly know what you mean by using a side-cutter to loosen the springs. Can you explain to a dummy?

Erv, thanks -- I've seen Al many times but I thought he mainly had Carter parts and not MSA. I've ordered my MSA parts from Michael Yahl and while his service is first-rate, the customs hassles have been a pain. I wouldn't have such trouble ordering from Al!

Thanks to everyone for all the help.
Mike

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 19 Feb 2019 10:39 am

Michael Hummel wrote:Bob/Jim: I don't exactly know what you mean by using a side-cutter to loosen the springs. Can you explain to a dummy?

Erv, thanks -- I've seen Al many times but I thought he mainly had Carter parts and not MSA. I've ordered my MSA parts from Michael Yahl and while his service is first-rate, the customs hassles have been a pain. I wouldn't have such trouble ordering from Al!

Thanks to everyone for all the help.
Mike

You don't cut the spring in any way.. You just put both edges of the side cutter in between the coil, push, and create a gap.. its ugly with a spring with "toothless" gaps, but it works... for many years Wayne Link of Linkon Guitars in Winnipeg was THE guy for MSA parts.. great stuff at great prices, but I am not sure if he has retired, or what... bob

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 Feb 2019 11:02 am

You can also stretch the springs by just inserting a large, flat screwdriver blade between the coils, and just twisting the screwdriver. Keep two things in mind, though. One, do it in only one or two places to start. And two, a lighter spring will sometimes work better than a stretched spring, or even an adjustable spring.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 19 Feb 2019 11:31 am

Bob,
I may be mistaken, it could have been Wayne Link.

Erv

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 19 Feb 2019 12:34 pm

Erv Niehaus wrote:Bob,
I may be mistaken, it could have been Wayne Link.
Erv

Al B, and is certainly worth a call, he might have some MSA stuff, but Wayne was THE guy,, his own pedal steel guitar design, the Linkon used a complete MSA pull system.. Identical parts right down to the pedals,, his prices were great, and he had everything, but i know he was getting up there in years and might have retired... bob