Carter

Nick Waugh · Post by **Nick Waugh** » 18 Feb 2019 5:39 am

Hi All

I have put up numerous posts about the thin cold tone that I have struggled with ever since starting 11 years ago. I have tried many different kinds of pick ups. upgraded my volume pedal, changed leads, speakers, Ken Fox mods for Peavy Nashville. I now use a Milkman amp with ext speaker and Bad Cat unleash to boost the wattage. Guess what? Although there is some improvement, it is till fundamentally thin and cold sounding.

I have been taking the Paul Franklyn online lessons. He agrees that it is not my right hand. I am at the point of giving up playing as I cannot stand the sound I am making. One of Paul's students who has been playing for many years, says that he had the same problem with his Carter guitar. He said it was thin and cold sounding. He did what I did, tried every pick up in the book, but no real difference. He got another guitar and problem solved. He says that his guitar was built at the time when John Fabian was ill. Which was the same time mine was built. He believes there may have been a faulty run of guitars at this time. That I know is pure conjecture.

Could the guitar be the problem? This give me hope as I can do something about this. It wont be easy to get the money but I will. Obviously I am going to try and find someone who I can do a comparison with before going down this road.

My main thought is that my Carter has an aluminium neck. I would imagine that an all wood guitar would sound warmer. Does anyone know if this is true or not, or have anything to day about anything I have said here?

Sorry for the long post

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 18 Feb 2019 5:57 am

I don't know the history of Carter, but the aluminium neck alone would not cause your problem. The difference between wood and Al is noticeable but subtle. Much more likely a dud batch of guitars. Whereabouts in the UK are you, BTW?

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 18 Feb 2019 6:06 am

Everyone hears differently. I doubt very much there is a problem with the guitar itself. Carter made a VERY good guitar. playability,reliability, sound, all as good as any steel guitar ever made, and many pros played them at one time or another...They do not sound the way you described.. I would put a humbucking pickup on the guitar, as well as a new jack to be sure.. If the guitar sounds ok unplugged, there is no reason it should sound "thin and cold".. Carter guitars are actually warm sounding... You can also sell it, and buy another brand, which might be the best option.. It should sell quickly, they are a well respected brand/ You might want to simply try some other brand of guitar ..

If the pickup is good, you should be able to use the EQ section of the amp to dial in a warmer thicker sound... Have you actually checked the pickup?... If its bad, it could give the poor sound you related.. Also, what kind of amp are you running through? have you tried bypassing the volume pedal? Have you tried a couple of different guitar cables??/..

Very seldom would a well built pedal steel guitar have a body/structural problem that would result in the tone problems you are experiencing . Tuning issues, perhaps, but not sound.. bob

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 18 Feb 2019 6:27 am

Nick, it sounds to me that you need to really experiment with your EQ settings. I'll bet that you always cut the mids on your amp, which gives a thinner sound. I would increase the mids and bass. Then adjust the treble. Do you use any delay? A small amount of delay, will fatten up the sound. There are a few pedals that might help, the Tech 21 Blonde or the cheaper Joyo model can change the sound quite a bit. Or maybe a 15 band or 31 band EQ unit. That would allow you to adjust the complete range. I have owned three Carters and also a Magnum, I thought they all sounded very good. Hope this helps.

Sean Borton · Post by **Sean Borton** » 18 Feb 2019 6:27 am

I agree with Bob completely, I really doubt it's the guitar itself.

I think you need to find out if the problem follows you, or if the problem follows the steel. The best way to do that is to get together with another steel player where the two of you can sit at each others steels and see what is happening.

I see you have tried many different things... but have you tried a different tone bar... something a little heavier? Have you tried a different brand or gauge (re-tuning required) of strings?

Bill also makes a couple good points above about the amp. I see this a lot with guitar players as well... they walk up to a rig that sounds great, then dial in a thin (or overly thick) sound. They always dial in the sound they are accustomed to, rather than the tone that would suit them better. That can be a sub conscious thing... if you have 11 years of conditioning, you may always dial up that same tone.

Which Peavey Nashville to you have, and what are your settings?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 18 Feb 2019 6:50 am

Essential information that is absent from this discussion: in these 11 years, have you played other steels and with what results? It is not impossible that a particular steel does not speak to you but it is not a conclusion that bears much conviction without comparison with other steels. Or, in the ultimate test as mentioned above, having someone with proven good touch and sound play this guitar, proving or disproving its qualities or lack thereof. It's something that I would obsessively want to know, if I were unhappy with a guitar.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 18 Feb 2019 6:59 am

Can you post a link to you playing your Carter?
It would help if we could hear your tone.

John Palumbo · Post by **John Palumbo** » 18 Feb 2019 7:09 am

Perhaps if there would be some way to sit down with an experienced player to review your set up, your playing. I've been down that road and you could spend many, many dollars on various guitars, pickups, amps, effects boxes on trying to buy that tone we strive for. An experienced players help could be invaluable.

jay thompson · Post by **jay thompson** » 18 Feb 2019 7:10 am

Nick, go here and give this Carter a listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3d4HEJM4UU

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Feb 2019 7:19 am

What kind of volume pedal and cords are you using? If you're using George-L's and a powered volume pedal, bear in mind that neither of them will likely do anything to "fatten up" your tone.

Try this first: Forget the BadCat dingus-thing, it's not designed for use on a pedal steel. Now, turn the volume up on the amp to at least half-way (clean/fat tones need power), then turn the mids down all the way, and set the treble to about 3. (If you don't have a mid control on your amp, IMHO, you bought the wrong amp.)

Now what is your tone? If it's still thin and trebly, you probably have an open pickup.

Nick Waugh · Post by **Nick Waugh** » 18 Feb 2019 7:53 am

Ian Rae I am based in Bournemouth

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 18 Feb 2019 8:17 am

Did you ever get help from Bob Hoffner?
In your thread titled Tone Problem he said you sound great.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 18 Feb 2019 8:23 am

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... t=#2705456

Is this the same guitar in this thread? I completely emphasize with you concerning getting a tone you love, but this recording sounds very nice to me. I don't hear anything brittle, weak or thin there.

Nick Waugh · Post by **Nick Waugh** » 18 Feb 2019 9:25 am

Just to add, when I play an electric guitar through the amp it sounds punchy and full and round. The same when I play my Martin acoustic or Gretsch resonator through the MIlkman. They sound great. They occupy a wide band width of sound frequency. Whereas my pedal steel seems only to occupy a very narrow band width and hence sounds small, thin and narrow.

Nick Waugh · Post by **Nick Waugh** » 18 Feb 2019 9:26 am

Jerry Overstreet - Bob advised me to change my Alumitone pick up for a Tonealigner which I did. It did make a difference but not enough. It still sounds lacking in warmth.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 18 Feb 2019 9:49 am

Can you get together with some other Steel players and compare equipment? It sounds like you need to try some other Steels thru your amp.

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 18 Feb 2019 10:03 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC9RijH9E5M

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 18 Feb 2019 10:21 am

Yes well, it was Pete who asked about the pickup, but in my experience the BL XR16 is the best match for the most balanced tone in a Carter. The Tonealigner may be very similar, I don't know.

Playing pedal steels for 40 yrs., I have found the differences in pickups of similar design to be very subtle. That is unless you do actually have a defective pickup.

Not knowing anything about your technique etc., I could only suggest a firmer right hand attack for a fuller tone.

In all the years of attending steel shows around the country, I have demo'ed many a Carter with both GL and XR 16's. I always said I could sit right down and play a Carter just fine. I thought they had a good sound.

A friend of mine recently acquired a D10 approx. 1996 build for his band to play. I have used it several times and it sounds good to me. I use either a LeMay modded NV400 with amp reverb and an AD80 analog delay, or one of my stereo rigs with Boss or Roland pre/fx and Mosvalve amps.

The guitar always has a nice sound with a full range of tone.

Out of the more than a dozen brands and models of pedal steels I owned/played, the only other guitar that I prefer over this Carter is a PRP Mullen from around the mid 90's.

Out of all the things you've tried, it could be that this guitar is just not a good match for you....unless there is some defect somewhere.

I'm a firm believer in finding the sound that makes you happy though. I'm just not sure you're gonna find what you're looking for with this one.

Maybe a Sho-Bud or Mullen would suit your likes better.

Alan Muir · Post by **Alan Muir** » 18 Feb 2019 10:55 am

Have you tried adjusting your pickup height? I'm new to psg but I know electric guitars and pickup height makes a difference in tone. Also check your output jack wiring and grounding.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Feb 2019 4:35 pm

Nick Waugh wrote:Just to add, when I play an electric guitar through the amp it sounds punchy and full and round. The same when I play my Martin acoustic or Gretsch resonator through the MIlkman. They sound great. They occupy a wide band width of sound frequency. Whereas my pedal steel seems only to occupy a very narrow band width and hence sounds small, thin and narrow.

If I guessed you're not getting that "punchy/round/full" sound with your electric guitar using just the bridge pickup, would I be right?

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 18 Feb 2019 5:02 pm

Carter are great guitars, I listened to your video on YouTube, and it sounds very good to me... it is a modern guitar, with a modern tone, and I think if it had any more lows it would make the guitar muffled ... IMHO your guitar cuts through the mix very clean and clear, as it is supposed to...

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 18 Feb 2019 6:02 pm

Nick I am NOT being a smart ass, and this is NOT a nasty comment.. Its a friendly observation..

You do not have a tone problem. You have a perception problem.

Your guitar sounds fine. it sounds like a good carter, and I know a good carter sound having owned 2 of them, and played them for many many years...
If you want a "warmer" less sterile sound, maybe try using an all tube amp such as a Fender... There nothing I heard there that could not be adjusted with the bass and treble knobs... You sound good, and so does that carter.

As others have said, maybe the carter is just not your guitar.

they do tend to run brighter than some others.. bob

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 18 Feb 2019 6:43 pm

I have had several Carters thru the years starting with a brand new one in 1992. They are great Guitars. I did go thru different pickups but found for me the single coil pickup was best to get that fat sound. The best for me was the Wallace TT not to say that their are not others as well. Set your amp up close to you to your side so you can twist knobs. Turn the volume up to at least 5 and sensitive the same. Cut treble back and presence back and middle about 3. Then play and twist knobs one number at a time to bring it around to what you want to here. If it is a Nashville 400 it is a great amp and you can get that sound you are looking for. Lots and lots of pickers use the 400 and the old 500.
I have for years used the LTD 400 and Love them. Good Luck, J.R. Rose

Nick Waugh · Post by **Nick Waugh** » 19 Feb 2019 3:54 am

Bob, I am using a Milkman amp which is all tube and about as warm as it gets for pedal steel. I have spent years tinkering with the tone controls to no avail. You maybe right that the Carter is not for me. So what I am looking for know is someone with a pedal steel that i can play through my amp to see what the difference is.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 19 Feb 2019 5:11 am

You should get with someone closer than me. Ken Byng is in Southampton, or was.