Fretboard accuracy/intonation ???

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

Hello all,
I was doing a bit fooling around this evening and I have encountered something which has stumped me.
Using a Peterson virtual strobe tuner I tuned the E9 neck,I then proceeded to try my accuracy with the bar,I placed the bar randomly at various frets and checked the 4thand 8th strings with the tuner,I was doing ok until I noticed that the bar placing was not directly above the fret marker in every case,some were spot on and a few were a little off but the first fret was way out,I had to put the bar quite a bit to the left to get the F notes to play true.
I then checked all strings across and found that the other 8 were all showing flat,I checked the "open" tuning several times and it was ok.On checking all the strings at various frets I found that when the 4th and 8th were showing true there were various differences in the tuning of the other strings,the differences were inconsistent.
I was careful not to apply pressure on the bar.
I have not noticed any "out of tune"during playing but this has got me confused.
Any ideas anyone.
Best regards
Billy

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

How old are your strings?

What brand of guitar is it?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Any player who relies primarily on visual feedback to play in tune is missing the boat, IMHO.

Some fretboards are inaccurate, but, regardless of the minor discrepancies, there is a much larger issue. The steel guitar is an instrument with infinite pitch variation. You sit above the strings and move the bar from the left side of your head to the right. You learn to adjust to the visual phenomenon called parallax -- the way the angle of sight can distort your perception -- but one fact remains: EITHER YOU ARE IN TUNE WITH THE OTHER INSTRUMENTS (and YOURSELF) OR YOU'RE NOT. If you haven't trained your EARS to know the difference in a nanosecond and automatically correct your hand position, you have serious intonation problems. Most players do it subconsciously and it's pretty obvious those who do it better than others.

My advice is to use the fret marker as a 'ballpark estimate' and rely on the ears as the final test for intonation.

Buddy Emmons showed up at St. Louis one year with the Blade -- his only remaining push-pull guitar. He played a dynamite set as always. He took his guitar over to the Buddy Emmons Music booth and I stopped by to tell him how much I enjoyed his set. HIS E9 NECK HAD NO FRETBOARD and he played a set of some of his most beautiful and demanding music that way.

After that, I started practicing blindfolded from time to time. It can make a big difference in your intonation to learn to LISTEN and trust your ears rather than relying on some visual marker.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Larry's right, the frets are only a general guide. Electronic tuners are quite exact, and checking anything but the open strings using an electronic tuner is kinda like measuring firewood with micrometers!

In short, tuners will show glaring errors where the tuning is perfectly acceptable for most playing.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

As Reece says- "let the eyes get you moving in the direction that you want to go and let the ears finish the job"...

Kenny Forbess · From: peckerwood point, w. tn.

What larry said,,,

I have a picture of Buddy's "Blade" without a fretboard, on stage at the Chase Park Plaza,,1984.
Goes to show, you use your eyes and ears more than you realize.
Kenny

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Try playing without looking at the deck and listen to your accuracy. It's in the ears and hands. Fretmarkers are to look pretty. I learned this when my dad made me my first steel and he had made a little error in the fretboard. It made no difference in playing, you still gotta put the bar where it belongs by tone.

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

Many thanks Gents for your informed replies.
I guess my engineering upbringing is causing me to be too precise.
I do play in tune(well most of the time)
I doubt very much if I will ever be able to do away with the fretboard though.I do however take the point about playing in the dark as a practise exercise.
When they gave out ears everyone else got musical ones and I got cloth ones,I have struggled all my life with pitch and since I have had a lifetime in industry I think I have done not too bad.
Best regards
Billy

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

Kind of like classical guitars without fret markers - or the violin family without frets at all. The more you learn to trust your hands & ears the better you will play.

But to the original question, I would say that probably even the slight bar pressure you have to use to get the notes to speak is causing the variations you are seeing on the tuner. Esepecially when you say that the first fret is the worst, because that position takes the most pressure to keep from buzzing etc., thus pushing the strings sharp & the bar to the left to be in tune. Also the varying thickness & tensions of the strings means they will be affected differently by bar pressure. I find that putting a hair more pressure on the tip of the bar with my index finger helps this out somewhat. Also, of course, make sure you're keeping the bar straight across the fretboard to start with.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

How old are your strings?

What brand of guitar is it?

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Had a similiar problem. Mine was fine until I got down past the 13th or 14th fret. There the strings were out of tune but were in tune 12 frets back up the fretboard. I used something I heard Lloyd Green talking about one time on a sixth string that wouldn't tune properly. If I remember correctly he said the way wound strings are wound sometimes creat tuning problems when they are not wound to where the wrapping is even all the way down a string. I changed strings, using SIT's E9th/B6th. This corrected the problem.

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · From: Ayrshire, Scotland

Billy. You're getting parannoyed again.
Remember. Bacardi......Gentle sips, not open-mouthed flips. A lifetime in industry in the UK is pretty good, when you think about the Thatcher(YEUCH!) years.

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

Sorry b0b I should have answered your question earlier.
The strings are Jagwire stainless and have been on less than a week and have probably had about 10 hours playing.
I really did not want to mention the brand of guitar in case folks think I am saying they are no good,they are the BEST (I think)
It is a Zum D10
thanks again
Billy

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Billy. I am not familiar with Zums, but the fretboard markers should be mathematically accurate and not visibly out of wack. If they are, and many are, it's not going to kill your playing.

If they are not accurate, it is just one of many annoyances to deal with. It's nice if your cues represented by your fretboards are not misleading, no matter how you slice it.

There are fretboards made that are perfectly accurate.

The Sho~Bud 3d plastic ones are a benchmark in that respect.

You shouldn't be looking at your hands to begin with.

Just kidding...

EJL

Ed Byerly · Posted 11 Dec 2005 7:13 pm

I had a 12-string BMI back in the 80's that had a fret board that was approximately 1 1/8" shorter than it was supposed to be. It was off too much to even be in the ballpark using your eyes. Once I figured out the mathematics, I bought a piece of acrylic and made my own.
I don't remember the formula since it was 1986. I have a Carter 12 now & it is right on the money! Ed

[This message was edited by Ed Byerly on 11 December 2005 at 07:14 PM.]

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

The basic formula for each octave is located here:
http://www.steelguitar.com/askbud/askbud20.htm

For the second octave you would add 12" and 18" for the third.

Note that your 0 fret or origin is the center of the roller in the keyhead assembly.

------------------
John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars

www.steelguitar.com
www.steelguitarinfo.com
www.carterstarter.com
www.magnumsteelguitars.com

David Doggett · Posted 12 Dec 2005 8:00 am

I think Paul B. is close to the answer. I would be very surprised if the Zum fretboard is inaccurate. But the different strings respond to bar pressure differentially. I prefer to do my fine tuning at the 8th fret, which is near the center of my playing range, rather than at the nut. First I tune strings 4 and 8 open at the nut very carefully where I want them with a meter. I then tune all the others roughly with the meter or by ear. Next I put the bar at the 8th fret (C chord on E9) with my normal playing pressure. I first make sure strings 4 and 8 are in tune with each other (by ear), then I fine tune all the other strings by ear to sound good with strings 4 and 8. This automatically takes care of different string tensions, bar pressure, and my normal holding angle. Now if I go back to the open nut, or up past the 12th fret, things might not be perfect. But this is as good as it gets, and toward the middle of my playing range it's as perfect as my ears can judge.

Tuning by ear with the bar also allows another tuning trick. When you are tuning two strings together, close your eyes and twist the bar back and forth until it sounds best. Then open your eyes to see the angle of the bar. That tells you whether the string you are tuning is sharp or flat, and by how much. When you get it just right, the bar will be straight when you open your eyes. This is a good tuning exercise for beginners, but after all these years, it still helps me when I get in one of those tuning fuddles where nothing sounds in tune. Get the bar straight and start playing. Make a mental note to change strings when you get a chance.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Rather than turning out the lights (and freaking out your neighbors), or closing your eyes (and freaking out your siggy-ot and/or inviting ambushes from the cat), I found it easy enough to cut a mask for the fretboard out of construction paper to force myself to play in tune by ear. It really helps for the long, 5th and octave slides to force yourself to remember and hear them.

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

Further to my original post
I was speaking to a very good friend and steel player(Bill McKillop)and he hit the nail on the head.
Using the Peterson tuner with the Newman preset I was spot on at the open position and also at the 12th fret, at all other frets the tuning of one or more strings was off the mark(on the tuner)
I concur that the Peterson tuner is set only for E9,it will not work accurately at all other frets.
Never at any time did I doubt the Zum it is still the BEST there is.
Best regards
Billy

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

If you don't tune pedals down you won't be taking account for cabinet drop on your particular guitar. Some guitars have drop on the E's at pedals down.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I think b0b's got it. That, coupled with pressure on the strings, will give you the readings you are getting.

Lee, from South Texas

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