Greetings to all on this forum. I have recently purchased my first steel, a Carter starter and have noticed two knee levers moving the wrong strings according to starter rodding chart. I would like to get your opinions if I should leave them as they are or try and connect them properly.
I believe LKR should lower E4 & E8 it is raising F1 & Eb2
The RKL should lower B5 it is lowering E4 & E8
Everything else is correct. Is there other guitars that are set up this way is that why? Thank you so much, this is a great learning site.
Carter starter knee levers
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Dennis Schafer
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- Location: Alberta, Canada
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Rich Ertelt
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- Location: Texas, USA
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Dennis Schafer
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 1 Feb 2019 3:51 pm
- Location: Alberta, Canada
The two most common 'basic' setups are:
-- E>F and the E>D# on one knee (LKL & LKR) or
-- E>F on the LKL and E>D# on RKL as you have.
Yes, your setup is not how it came from the factory but if the re-rodding is not a mess, it is a perfectly viable and conventional way to do it. So no, it is not odd.
How to decide which way to choose? Do a forum search for something like "E's on left" and settle in for a few day's worth of reading. No simple answer.
IF the 'conversion' was well enough done, I would recommend leaving it as is and playing it rather than spending time re-rodding it back to factory specs.
If it rattles and seems like a mess, restoring it might be time well spent.
-- E>F and the E>D# on one knee (LKL & LKR) or
-- E>F on the LKL and E>D# on RKL as you have.
Yes, your setup is not how it came from the factory but if the re-rodding is not a mess, it is a perfectly viable and conventional way to do it. So no, it is not odd.
How to decide which way to choose? Do a forum search for something like "E's on left" and settle in for a few day's worth of reading. No simple answer.
IF the 'conversion' was well enough done, I would recommend leaving it as is and playing it rather than spending time re-rodding it back to factory specs.
If it rattles and seems like a mess, restoring it might be time well spent.
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Rich Ertelt
- Posts: 10
- Joined: 25 Sep 2017 10:16 pm
- Location: Texas, USA
When I got my GFI, the guy before me had the E lower on RKL. I moved it over to LKR, like I was used to. I tried it the other way for a while, but went with what I know.Dennis Schafer wrote:Ya that's why it seems so weird to me too. I'm not sure why it was set up this way, I thought perhaps this is another way that is common, or just someone preferring it like that. I will see if I can set it up how it should be. Thanks for the reply.
There is a recent thread on this that linked to an old thread, was quite the discussion, with some top players giving their opinions, which differed on where the lever should be. Interesting read
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Rich Ertelt
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- Location: Texas, USA
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=341026
About half way down it a link to an old discussion. Read that. Very interesting.
About half way down it a link to an old discussion. Read that. Very interesting.
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Dennis Schafer
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- Location: Alberta, Canada
Just to reinforce what I'm trying to say---there are pros (more than cons) for either arrangement. The E lower on either the left or the right knee is common enough that neither is going to put you in *exception* territory. Remember to think of the function of the levers rather than the names of them. If you are working from tab, identify the raise and the lower and not "LKL" or "LKR" (in my opinion, tab that denotes lever name rather than function is making things more confusing than they need to be).
As a beginner, you are much better off playing your guitar rather than modifying it. Unless it is playing poorly, I'd suggest leaving it as it is.
As a beginner, you are much better off playing your guitar rather than modifying it. Unless it is playing poorly, I'd suggest leaving it as it is.
Dennis, welcome to the steel playing community. One of the exciting aspects of pedal steel is that it's still evolving as an instrument. Since the beginning, players have been dreaming up new changes and sticking them on whatever lever they had free...or adding new levers. Many players, myself included, learned on instruments where the E lower either didn't exist, or was in a different location. If you browse this article on the copedants of some famous players, you'll see a lot of variation. https://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=684
The factory setup on the Carter Starter included the more popular position for the E lowers. There is a good ergonomic argument for this location, but there is a sizable minority of players who learned on steels which had the E lower on the right knee. I'm one of them, and old habits die hard. I'm not saying that RKL is a better location, but it's not worse or unheard of. I think the only shortcoming of learning that way is that if you buy another used steel, it's more probable it will come with that change on the left. Then you'll have to change it back to what you learned on. At least that's what I did. In fact, I tried moving the E lower to the LKR but couldn't get used to it, so moved it back to RKL. Of course, if you buy new, you can have it set up any way you want.
The factory setup on the Carter Starter included the more popular position for the E lowers. There is a good ergonomic argument for this location, but there is a sizable minority of players who learned on steels which had the E lower on the right knee. I'm one of them, and old habits die hard. I'm not saying that RKL is a better location, but it's not worse or unheard of. I think the only shortcoming of learning that way is that if you buy another used steel, it's more probable it will come with that change on the left. Then you'll have to change it back to what you learned on. At least that's what I did. In fact, I tried moving the E lower to the LKR but couldn't get used to it, so moved it back to RKL. Of course, if you buy new, you can have it set up any way you want.
Last edited by Tommy Mc on 11 Feb 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Charlie McDonald
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Re: Carter starter knee levers
Just following the conversation along, but got lost there. I may be reading it wrong.... My Starter could change setup a little,Dennis Schafer wrote: I believe LKR should lower E4 & E8 it is raising F1 & Eb2
but I don't recall being able to add raises to strings 1 & 2. Somebody correct my perception here....
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Bobby D. Jones
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Carter strater knee levers
Welcome to the Steel Guitar Forum.
When you start dealing with a Steel Guitar the first thing to remember is, This thing is not a Piano. To start, There is Emmons/Nashville A-B-C and Day Set Up C-B-A for the first 3 pedals. From there it's a "Who Done This".
Sounds like someone was experimenting with different pulls on strings.
Or someone who had a heavy steel at home and set this guitar up, They wanted a light gig guitar set up to match a practice guitar. So the same licks could be used when playing on stage.
Some players like The F Lever (raise 4-8) and D Lever (lower 4-8) on left knee, Some like them split one to each knee for a continues move of strings 4-8 in raise or lower.
If you have played enough to want both raise and lower on Left knee it is your choice.
Good Luck in this adventure and Happy Steelin.
When you start dealing with a Steel Guitar the first thing to remember is, This thing is not a Piano. To start, There is Emmons/Nashville A-B-C and Day Set Up C-B-A for the first 3 pedals. From there it's a "Who Done This".
Sounds like someone was experimenting with different pulls on strings.
Or someone who had a heavy steel at home and set this guitar up, They wanted a light gig guitar set up to match a practice guitar. So the same licks could be used when playing on stage.
Some players like The F Lever (raise 4-8) and D Lever (lower 4-8) on left knee, Some like them split one to each knee for a continues move of strings 4-8 in raise or lower.
If you have played enough to want both raise and lower on Left knee it is your choice.
Good Luck in this adventure and Happy Steelin.
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Greg Milton
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- Joined: 29 May 2009 7:03 am
- Location: Benalla, Australia
Hi Dennis,
Welcome to the world of steel guitar!
The arrangement of lowering Es - LKR vs RKL - is one thing for your consideration (and in my opinion is much of a muchness), another issue that hasn't been mentioned is that rather than having the stock starter tuning:
You have, after some modification made by a previous owner, this instead:
Both are perfectly acceptable tunings, and while I would rather lower string 5 a half step than raise strings 1 and 2, I know there are a LOT of people on this forum that would prefer the way you have it. I'm sure PF would rather it that way as well!
My opinion is that if the mod was done well and it's staying in tune then it's fine!
Welcome to the world of steel guitar!
The arrangement of lowering Es - LKR vs RKL - is one thing for your consideration (and in my opinion is much of a muchness), another issue that hasn't been mentioned is that rather than having the stock starter tuning:
You have, after some modification made by a previous owner, this instead:
Both are perfectly acceptable tunings, and while I would rather lower string 5 a half step than raise strings 1 and 2, I know there are a LOT of people on this forum that would prefer the way you have it. I'm sure PF would rather it that way as well!
My opinion is that if the mod was done well and it's staying in tune then it's fine!
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Dennis Schafer
- Posts: 9
- Joined: 1 Feb 2019 3:51 pm
- Location: Alberta, Canada
Thanks again for all your replies you guys. Tommy- That's exactly why I started the discussion is for wanting to learn on something that is "correct" so if I ever do purchase a better guitar it won't be to hard to assimilate. Bobby- I think you hit the nail on the head there. This was probably the gig or practice guitar. Greg- Thank you for the layouts on the different setups.
I guess what it all boils down to is if it's comfortable to me I will leave it as it is. I don't plan on doing any gigging it's just for my own pleasure and recordings.
Left knee or Right knee, as long as I don't need to use my wee knee!
I guess what it all boils down to is if it's comfortable to me I will leave it as it is. I don't plan on doing any gigging it's just for my own pleasure and recordings.
Left knee or Right knee, as long as I don't need to use my wee knee!
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Greg Milton
- Posts: 276
- Joined: 29 May 2009 7:03 am
- Location: Benalla, Australia