Fix for sharpened third issue

[Ian Rae]

A trombone section (in which I sit from time to time) plays in JI because it's all it can do. The art of playing is all about tuning out the beats in a split second before anyone hears them. They cannot play in ET even if asked. ET was invented to solve a problem that only keyboards and fretted instruments have, and is the modern, "fashionable" system. JI is as old as nature itself.

Incidentally, I solve the 2-F#s problem by having two F#s. My A pedal lowers string 7 slightly to give a perfect 5th with with string 5. Because I have a B6 uni setup I in fact have two C#s, two E#s and two Ds. Every chord I use is true. I should make a video to convince the round-earthers. The single advantage of ET is that diminished chords are really crisp and crunchy.

[b0b]

It's a well known problem that, within Equal Temperament, the third tends to sit a little sharper than is natural for the ear, otherwise known as the Pythagorean comma.

I have recently started using the G# lever to flatten the 3rd a few cents on big open chords (e.g. an open E chord, no bar).

Does anyone else do this? I don't use 'sweetened tunings' because they always seem like a deal with the devil (and the gods of cabinet drop), so I'm always looking for simple solutions.

Tim.

It's not a "deal with the devil" at all. The E9th was designed to deal with this problem. You tune the G# strings and the B-C# pedal a little bit flat. Then you tune the E-F lever twice that much flat (because it's the 3rd of C#).

G# and C# are in tune with each other. The minor 3rd interval C# to E is wide, like the 6/5 ratio of JI. The major 3rd interval C# to F (E#) is narrow, like the 5/4 frequency ratio of JI. Same as E to G#.

Similar magic is in play with the D# note, an exercise left to the reader. The "gods of cabinet drop" work in your favor on the F# strings. That's by design, too. It's all part of the wonderful design of the E9th copedent.

Tim, your idea of nudging your G lever to smooth out the open major chord seems to be a slippery slope to me. Do you then nudge your X lever (B to Bb) with pedals down for the same reason?

E9th JI reference: b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html

[Jay Coover]

Ah the theology of tuning, how I've missed you.

You know I didn't think this topic was necessarily the place for it. How wrong I was.

Do you find there's more than a little 'flat earthiness' to the just intonation crowd?

You know, like the whole history of Western Temperament took a serious wrong turn around 1860 and in fact the sun does also revolve around the earth.

Actually the very simple science of just intonation, simple math is the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. The flat earth theory is in fact equal temperament.

[Slim Laurence]

The flat earth theory is in fact equal temperament.

This.

[C. D. Maclean]

Just Intonation is rational in more than one sense of the word. Not tuning your guitar and trying to sort it with partial knee levers just plain weird. I thought Tim was being a little rude to folk that were only trying to help. But each to their own....

You cant change the Laws of Physics as Montgomery Scott would have said if he played pedal steel in the Enterprise Country band.
Cheers
Calum

[Ian Rae]

b0b is right when he says that cabinet drop can get you out of the 2-F#s hole, but if you're lucky enough to own non-drooping instruments you need to be more scientific and add some compensation.

I'm with Bob Carlucci. When I started playing I had no tuner and was enjoying myself. Then I got a phone app because it's harder to misplace than a tuning fork and out of curiousity I tried ET. Everything just felt way out and I couldn't play at all. I haven't been tempted since. And the idea of sweetened ET seems like a long way round when the 4ths and 5ths are near enough anyway and it's just the 3rds that are the issue.

[Bob Hoffnar]

It's a well known problem that, within Equal Temperament, the third tends to sit a little sharper than is natural for the ear, otherwise known as the Pythagorean comma.

I have recently started using the G# lever to flatten the 3rd a few cents on big open chords (e.g. an open E chord, no bar).

Does anyone else do this? I don't use 'sweetened tunings' because they always seem like a deal with the devil (and the gods of cabinet drop), so I'm always looking for simple solutions.

Tim.

Tim,
I checked out some of your playing on line and you sound pretty good !
You seem a little mixed up though. First off you should look into what the Pythagorean comma is before you reference it.
. Your solution only deals with one perceived problem in one position. That “open 3rd” has a plethora of harmonic functions within the tuning that your system will complicate. If you only play a G chord at the 3rd fret and then push up and down on the B pedal then you are good to go. But to me that is treating the Pedalsteel like an autoharp with 10 strings and a capo and missing the depth and elegance of the tuning.

BTW: I also don’t use a sweetened tuning anymore and that straight up 3rd sounds pretty ugly to me. It works when I’m playing with other people and I’m getting used to it though. When I’m playing just intonation compositions I pretty much retune everything for the piece but that is a whole different story.

[b0b]

Let's keep things civil, folks. This is a discussion, not an argument. Attack the issue, not the person.

[Tim Sheinman]

Right, well I think that's quite enough of that.

[Glenn Demichele]

I used to flatten the thirds when I started. It took me forever to figure out why I sounded OK to myself on stage but horrible on tape. The answer was that the sweetened third is no longer the third when you move to different pedal positions (AF etc.), and being a bass player, I tend to tune on the root. In other positions however, the root would need be flat or sharp for the chord to sound in tune with the band. So it wasn't so much the sweetened third that was giving me the problem, but my brain's focus on tuning to the root. I will NEVER be able to retrain my tuning focus. b0b gave me a clue on a thread once: I tried Meantone tuning and it fixed this problem immediately (yes immediately!). These days I tune mostly ET because of the band thing.