6th string knee lever with tow actions: how to tune it!

[Jay Stapley]

Hi all, I've searched for this but without success so hoping you can help me.
I have a Zumsteel Encore. The knee lever that puts the 6th string down a tone from G# to F# has a further action if you push it past the "feel stop:" it makes the G# a G natural: I love it but I can't figure out how to get both actions tuned properly.
The Zumsteel manual only talks about double-action tuning where a pedal and a knee lever interact, nothing about the knee lever alone.
All help appreciated:-)

[Tom Gorr]

Check how many raise rods are rodded into your changer endplate for that string.

I suspect a second rod where the slack sets the feel stop and then engages raise finger to bring the note back up faster than the lower finger can lower it. Would make for a pretty stable half stop.

I had theorized the possibility of this some time ago but never tried it.

[Jay Stapley]

Thanks: there are two nylon hex bolts that are attached to the string: the upper one is green. I have tried adjusting them both but they affect each other so getting the whole time in tune the semitones is flat and if I get the semitones in tune the whole time is out.

[Andy Vance]

You may want to reach out to Doug Earnest, since he builds them, I'd assume he can probably answer any questions you have.

He's on the forum here. You can also get his direct email off of his website

http://www.stageonesteelguitars.com/

Andy

[Jay Stapley]

Ok, will do:-)

[Bob Tuttle]

Here is the page put of the Encore owners manual explaining the split tuning.

[Jay Stapley]

Thanks: that’s different to the Manila I have but much appreciated:-)

[Jay Stapley]

I hate predictive text.

[Jay Stapley]

and it didn't work:-(

[Doug Earnest]

Jay, you may need to de-tune everything on the sixth string to get back to a good starting point.

Then do everything on the page that Bob Tuttle so kindly posted IN THE ORDER THAT IT IS WRITTEN and it should work properly.

I'll be happy to email you a copy of the manual if you don't have one, you will need to contact me through my website.

[Jay Stapley]

I’ve tried it a couple of times without success. When you say “detune” do you mean slacken off the hex nylon nuts completely? I’ve emailed you at your site too: a Manual would be most useful, thanks.

[Jon Light]

When you say “detune” do you mean slacken off the hex nylon nuts completely?

That is correct. Back them off until they make no contact with the fingers and you can jiggle them in and out with the slack that you have created (maybe 1/8"). You have cleaned the slate and can begin from scratch.

[Jay Stapley]

Thanks for your patience gentlemen: I need a little more of it:-) I've done what was suggested and then used the white nut to tune the string to Natural when both raise and lower functions are engaged. Now, the green nut will only raise the note, not lower it.

[Jay Stapley]

I can make the string lower a whole tone with the white nut. The green nut now raises it when I push through the feel stop, but the lower whole tone is now sharp again.

[Jon Light]

This is NOT a feeler stop being discussed. This is a split tuner. It is 100% about getting accurate tuning of the G note and of the F# note when the knee lever and the B pedal are engaged together and separately. The tuning procedure is exactly as posted above. I am not aware of any steel guitar using both a split tuning method (either this extra rod method or a split tuning screw in the changer) AND a half-stop feeler mechanism on the same string.
A feeler stop, using a spring, and a split tuner are two entirely different things.

I won't speculate further without some photos.

[Jay Stapley]

My original post states that this is not a pedal/lever combo, just a lever. Or am I misunderstanding something? Will post a video when I’m back in the studio.

[Doug Earnest]

Here is how the guitar is supposed to be set up. What you are calling a feel stop on string 6 may be caused by some mis adjustment.
The B pedal raises string 6. The lever, likely Right Knee Left, lowers string 6.

ZumSteel Encore Standard Setup
Pedal A (left) Raise 5 & 10 B to C#
Pedal B (center) Raise 3 & 6 G# to A
Pedal C (right) Raise 5 B to C#, Raise 4 E to F# (tune a bit flat)
Levers –
LL (left moving left) Raise 4 & 8 E to F
LR (left moving right) Lower 4 & 8 E to Eb
LV (vertical) Lower 5 & 10 to Bb, Lower 5 & 10 to C used with pedal A
RL (right moving left) Raise 1 F# to G#, Raise 2 D# to E, Lower 6 G# to F#, Lower 6 to G used with pedal B
RR (right moving right) Lower 2 D# to D at half stop, to C# at full stop, lower 9 D to C#

[Jay Stapley]

A little different. The lever lowering the G# to F# also has a further movement that raises the same string up a semitones if pushed further past the stop.
I need to do some more research, it seems.

[Jay Stapley]

https://youtu.be/vwcQ8j5mvDk

If a picture paints a thousand words, how many does a video paint?

[Doug Earnest]

If you will turn the guitar over I think you may find that somehow the knee lever mounting has gotten bent and is going past the white nylon lever stop. The travel of the lever looks to be excessive
An uncommon problem but it is possible. If this is the case you should gently nudge the knee lever mount such that it is captured by the stops.

[Jay Stapley]

Thanks to Ken Byng. The stop was not stopping the lever. It seems I don’t have that one-action minor chord after all. Damn.
Many thanks to all here for their efforts, much appreciated.

[Jon Light]

Glad that's sorted.

Now.....a feeler stop CAN be added (I would think). I don't know what type of bellcranks Doug uses but a spring-loaded bumper rod system could be utilized. We're talking about some improvised engineering by someone with a good sense of what's what, possibly using a different guitar's bellcrank (something that can handle a rod-thru type of linkage). I'm just thinking out loud on the keyboard here.....

[Jay Stapley]

... keep thinking out loud... but in the meantime:
What do most players do for the minor key? Combination of pedal and knee lever seems clunky. I’ve found the 7th string plus a and b pedals but to be able to drop the 6th a semitones with just one action would be fab.

[Jon Light]

re: the 6th string lower---

If you have no interest in or intention of learning to use the B pedal/knee lever combination (and I say this with absolutely no attitude although it is, for me, an automatic move that also is a quite useful dom7 with the A pedal also down) it is not at all out of the question to simply change the lever from G#>F# to G#>G. You can adjust the lever stop to shorten the throw and adjust the nylon tuner. Totally loosen the added split tuner to take that out if the equation. And if you feel committed to this, take that rod off entirely -- one less thing to rattle around.

I see nothing at all wrong with this approach although, as I say, I would lose some cool things. But they are not essential or fundamental.

[C. D. Maclean]

I use a semitone raise on string 2 as a feel stop for RKL. It does nothing for the first part of the travel and then kicks in and is set to be hard. Ie further away from the cross shaft. Makes the minor easy to hit with only one lever required. I also pull string one up a full tone with the same move and can hit the half raise on that as well. Takes a bit of experimentation with crank positions but worth it when it works.
Cheers
Calum