Which steels have counterforce/ and compensators

Ben Godard · Post by **Ben Godard** » 11 Jan 2019 5:38 pm

Other than Emmons. What guitars have some type of cabinet drop correction. Also, which brands have lower return compensators

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 12 Jan 2019 5:16 am

Ben,
The lower return compensator was my fathers concept...It was introduced in I believe 67. He put them on my MSA, Sho-Bud's, PP, and all Franklins came with them.....
Paul

Danny Letz · Post by **Danny Letz** » 12 Jan 2019 5:22 am

Zumsteel.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Jan 2019 6:08 am

Although the Franklin is a great guitar, admittedly the primary reason I ordered a new Franklin was the drop return compensators. The Franklin was the only production steel that had them at the time. I was playing a 71 D-10 PP Emmons and got fed up with fighting the Hysteresis.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 12 Jan 2019 7:13 am

Return compensators are an option on Williams guitars. The fact that they were Franklin designed and are Franklin employed was more than enough to convince me to opt in.

Bill Lowe · Post by **Bill Lowe** » 12 Jan 2019 7:24 am

How do they work on a P/P?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Jan 2019 8:17 am

I don't see any way on a PP. All pull fingers "float" where a PP does not.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 12 Jan 2019 8:20 am

Does the new MSA Legend have a Anti cabinet drop feature? Also, do they offer a Lower return option? I see no mention of either at their site. Are ether or both of the options needed? Legend owners opinion appreciated.

Kyle Bennett · Post by **Kyle Bennett** » 12 Jan 2019 12:44 pm

Bobby,
MSA does not offer a counter-force device. We do offer return-overshoot compensators. We offer two types with both types using o-rings. The first type is built in to the changer and sacrifices a row of lower holes but is easy to apply to all strings. The second type uses a locked-down cross rod and only sacrifices a lower hole on the string being compensated but can get crowded on the underside of the guitar if very many strings are compensated.

Bill Lowe · Post by **Bill Lowe** » 12 Jan 2019 6:16 pm

Jack, I didnâ€™t think so. I misunderstood your post.

Ben Godard · Post by **Ben Godard** » 12 Jan 2019 6:28 pm

Thanks Paul for the info. And yes I read about Paul Sr coming up with that. Amazing what a stationary rod and o-ring can do. I love seeing all the concepts and designs of different steels. Iâ€™m wish I could build steel guitars one day. Iâ€™ve been in the machine tool business for 15 years and one day I want to buy my own machine or two. And then build my own guitar. I just wish I could play one like you! Lol. I need to take your courses. Lol. Not trying to put you on a pedestal or anything, but it was your playing on Alan Jacksonâ€™s old stuff in early 90â€™sbthat made me start playing to start with. That is still some of the most tasteful steel work Iâ€™ve heard. Midnight in Montgomery gave me chills! Of coarse That was back when country music was still country. Lol

Thanks so much Bobby for clarifying my question.

And thanks Kyle for answering my question

And yes Iâ€™m in the process of buying a new or used steel. I love Emmons but I love the engineering of new MSAâ€™s too. I may go with MSA Even though they donâ€™t have counterforce. If the guitar is built well it will have minimal drop. unless cab drop is past say 2 cents. It doesnâ€™t bother me much As far as return compensators, I donâ€™t see why any all pull guitars builder would not put them on. Any keyed guitar is gonna have overshoot or hysteresis if the string has both a lower and a raise.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 13 Jan 2019 3:09 am

On my Franklin, the C6th 10th String (low C) needs two O rings to work properly. With one o-ring if was iffy on returning to pitch. Adding the second o-ring stabilized it.

My Franklin is "stock" no changes in rodding from how it was built.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 13 Jan 2019 9:22 am

Jack Stoner wrote: Adding the second o-ring stabilized it.

Jack, do you have a source for O-rings of the right size and elastic properties?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 13 Jan 2019 9:40 am

I found some at the local Ace Hardware about 10 years ago when I replaced mine. Whether they have the correct elasticity ??? They work.

As far as the double O rings that I mentioned on the C6th 10th string, nothing to do with replacement O rings, it was the originals and I came across the double o ring fix when the guitar was about 5 years old.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 16 Jan 2019 6:30 am

The Keyless design is supposed to "eliminate" the hysteresis and thus compensators are not supposed to be needed.

Note I didn't make any "firm" statements. LOL

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 16 Jan 2019 8:51 am

Paul Franklin Sr. showed me how he built a counter force system by having a string under the steel that pulled back on the changer if I remember correctly. He said he never put it into production though.

Is there a patent on the Emmons counterforce ?