Playing from sheet/book music?

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 1 Dec 2005 5:11 am

Being fluent in a language involves learning to spell, write, and speak without thinking one way and translating to another. I used to dream in Spanish. One day I hope I can dream in Music.

The perfect analogy, and beautifully written at that. You will do well, my friend.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 1 Dec 2005 5:15 am

I contend that standard music notation is simply not adequate for the level of complexity of a pedal steel guitar... We have invented an instrument that is beyond the capabilities of standard notation…... If you want to compose music for pedal steel, or adapt other instrumental music for pedal steel, standard notation will not do - it is incomplete and not fully usable. The only complete solution is to have both standard notation and tab.

I disagree. Tab is useful for instructional material only. Once you've learned how to play, it should be abandoned.

The pedal steel is NOT beyond the capabilities of standard notation. It's just that reading standard notation on the steel requires more knowedge on the part of the player than reading on other instruments does.

It is up to US, the players, to learn how to make the system work for us.

I believe anybody smart enough to learn to play this thing is also smart enough to go the extra mile and learn hlow to read on it.

It's really not rocket science. (OK, maybe it is, but I think we're all up to it.)

There is a short section on reading music on the steel in the free supplement to my thory book. it is helpful but not necessary to have read the book in order to understand this particular section. Once again I offer the file to anybody who wants it.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 1 Dec 2005 5:26 am

To answer the original question, yes I can. I'm not that fast at it, but fast enough I can get through it. An of course, the more I do it the faster I get at it.

I've come up with my own system in which I see the notes as intervals above or below the root note. This simplifies it greatly for me.

I can't express to you how valuable this has been to me. Anyone who refuses to try is cheating only themselves.

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 1 Dec 2005 6:56 am

David D: The first condition is to know your instrument. If someone says--sound a G on your 4th string----and one has to hunt for it, he/she simply has to go back and learn the fretboard (this procedure is outlined in my book). I think it's probably the time-to-be-spent doing this learning is what turns one off the whole thing. I've heard that no steel player has ever gone back to Berklee for the 2nd semester! I've known of several guys who attended that school, but none graduated. ----j----

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 1 Dec 2005 7:02 am

Tab is great for helping find ONE possibility of where to play something. Lloyd Green advises finding 4 or 5 positions to play every phrase, so tab gives you a limited picture of the musical scope.

For quick and dirty, it's OK. But you know what- there is a lot of tab out there that is inaccurate.

It also relays zero information about harmonic content, if you care about such things (I do). More ranting about tab and standard notation

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Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 01 December 2005 at 07:05 AM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 1 Dec 2005 7:03 am

Dr Hugh: I went to Berklee from 1977 to 1980 and studied steel my last 3 semesters, so that story is not wholly true...I graduated in 1980 and started teaching there in 2004.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 01 December 2005 at 07:04 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Dec 2005 7:07 am

Mike, it sounds like you figure things out the same way I do. Given enough time, I can tell you what note I am playing. I translate from the numbered scale I know on the instrument to the note in standard notation. That also sounds like what Randy does. This works fine for simple keys like C, F and G. But it falls apart in keys like Eb, where I don't know off the top of my head what notes are the 3rd, 4th, etc. of that scale. But maybe you don't translate from the numbered scale. Maybe you start from some nearby reference note you know on the instrument and work from there to the unknown string, fret and pedal/lever, in other words, transposing. Which do you do, or is it a combination? And by the way, telling you what note I am playing is much easier than taking any random written note and finding it on my instrument (outside of simple keys).

I completely disagree that tab should be abandoned after learning to play. Standard notation cannot convey licks and phrases. It does not tell you whether to get the notes by picking across the strings, or by sliding up and down the neck on the same strings, or by using a pedal or lever, or by slanting the bar. Tab does that with unambiguous one-to-one correspondence. Adding standard notation above that gives you the timeing, and completes the system. Either one alone is incomplete, and of limited usefulness.

Many players would never be able to figure out some of Buddy Emmons or Jay Dee Manesses phrases by seeing the written music, even if they can read it. If you didn't see the Franklin pedal written into the tab, you would never be able to figure out how to get what Paul Franklin plays simply by seeing it written out in standard notation. Because pedal steel is a chord based instrument rather than a chromatic instrument, it is in its nature that some things can be played with one tuning or copedent, and not another. There are things that can be played on C6 that are not possible on E9, and vice versus. With standard notation, you might discover half-way through the piece that you are playing the wrong tuning, and "you can't get there from here." Tab clears that up.

Standard notation is not enough. We need more. We deserve it. And we shouldn't be ashamed of it. Tab is not merely a crutch. It is an essential system of notation for the instrument. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 December 2005 at 07:25 AM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 1 Dec 2005 7:18 am

I'll admit that tab does give you an "in" in terms of where something can be played. I believe Buddy Emmons does his own tab, so accuracy (in terms of "that's how he played it") is not an issue.

And the complexity of pedal steel does warrant all the help we can get- so I do favor tab plus standard notation as a complete system for pedal steel.

Underarm guitarists have long had a system where the standard notation is accompanied by circled numbers showing the string the note is played on; position indicators, and fingerings. It would be possible to do with for steel as well, but since there is no standard system and probably 95% of players don't read notation, it would be more work ,met with more resistance, than fun to try and set one up!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Dec 2005 7:37 am

John, maybe something intergrating tab and standard notation would be possible. But I am pessimistic about that. And we already have something that is absolutely complete, and many players use, standard notation above tab. It is not that hard to learn, because you don't have to know the notes in standard notation, and it is quite easy to learn to read the timing and phrasing from it.

Imagine if you put a horn part in front of a piano player. There is only a single line of notes, and no left hand. It is not adequate for his instrument. Putting standard notation in front of a pedal steel player has the same incompleteness. Our instrument is simply beyond that. Berklee needs to catch up.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 December 2005 at 07:37 AM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 1 Dec 2005 8:20 am

As far as I know, Berklee doesn't force anyone to read just standard notation on pedal steel- Mike Idhe would be the one to ask; I don;'t teach pedal steel there...but consider this: Is it realistic to expect someone who isn't a player to understand how the instrument works? Many steel players don't even understand what happens when they "mash" other than "it sounds good"...you don't have to know how to play bassoon to write a bassoon part- same for ANY other instrument- of course, you need to know ranges and what's effective and what's impossible, etc...but I think expecting a non-steel playing arranger to hand out a part to a steel player with standard notation AND tab is pretty much dreaming- unless the person is REALLY dedicated and wants to spend time with you learning your particular setup. [This message was edited by John McGann on 01 December 2005 at 08:22 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 1 Dec 2005 8:48 am

OOps. the question was "can you read the notes and chords off a sheet of music".
My answer it Yes, I can, but rarely do, anymore.

"Once in ahile "I look up a song in the old fake book, like "skylark", etc. and look at the bridge or parts I may have forgotten. Most of them, I know from memory and good ear training.........al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 1 Dec 2005 10:17 am

David Doggett writes

Imagine if you put a horn part in front of a piano player. There is only a single line of notes, and no left hand. It is not adequate for his instrument.

Here, again, I would hope that the well rounded fully "educated" pianist would be able to play something with his or her left hand, even if all that was presented was a horn part (leaving aside the question of transposing the horn part!) I would venture a guess that our jazz piano students would actually fair well at this, given their background in playing by ear and their training in notation in our own curriculum.

Ultimately, I believe strongly that each way of playing informs and enhances the other. I came back to playing steel last spring after @25 years away, In the interim I went through some very rigorous and lengthy study of notated music. I am certain that there are things I can "hear" now and that I can understand and work with that I could not before I developed this side of my musical self. In short, I think that combining the two types of thinking about and playing music makes one far more flexible as a musician.

Playing notated music on the steel (and here I am merely repeating what others have said above) will open up new ideas and reveal connections that one might never stumble upon by only thinking in terms of licks and tab. I will spend time trying to copy Lloyd Green and Buddy Emmons solos, licks, etc., until the cows come home, but I'm sure I will move through it more quickly, or at least with less frustration, having learned all I did during my "lost-steel-weekend."

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, Peavey Heritage VTX

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 1 Dec 2005 10:23 am

My objection to tab it it's "paint by the numbers" approach. If one must use tab, I think Jimmy Crawford's approach is best. It
s not enough to know how to step on the A pedal. You need to what the pedals do, and how they function harmonically.

David, I don't use any kind of numbering system when I play from sheet music.

I'm not sure I can accurately describe the way I think. But I will say this. You can stop me at any time, right in the middle if a ride, and ask what notes I'm playing, and I could tell you (after I get done biting your head off for interrupting me

)

I can tell you the name of every note on every string, on every fret, in every pedal position. But I don't have it memorized. Rather, I can instantly figure it out, because I have such a good understanding of basic music theory.

I have to confess, This stuff came very easily to me. I was able to grasp the concepts as easily as most peoole grasp the concepts that 2 and 2 equal 4, and I realize that others don't have that immediate grasp of the subject.

But even so, it's a VERY worthwhile thing to know. I suggest that EVERYBODY reading this who hasn't already done so, take a class in basic harmony at your local community college. And while you're doing it, try to see how the things they are teaching in the class relate to what the pedals do.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Dec 2005 10:40 am

Well, sure a good piano player could improvise chords and left hand stuff. But each player would come up with something a little different, and none of it would be one-to-one with what the composer wanted - which is the whole point of notation. And of course I'm being facetious - ain't gone be no composers or conductors handing out tab to steelers. On the other hand, piano composers have typically known how to play and write for piano. And orchestral composers do learn lots of rules for writting music for all the instruments.

And I agree that learning to read standard notation and theory will be helpful to anyone. But realistically for steel, learning to play along by ear to tracks and popular CDs may be a better investment in time. And working through the tab of top pro steeler's arrangements and licks will teach many things that standard notation cannot.

The one place where standard notation would really be helpful to know is with the classical repertoire. Many classical pieces don't have the convenient short repeating verses of popular music. They have to be precisely what was written, not something close that is guessed at by ear, and they can be way too long and complicated to memorize by ear. That's what standard notation was invented for, and it will always be needed for it.

Dylan Schorer · Post by **Dylan Schorer** » 1 Dec 2005 11:06 am

I'm stilll a struggling newbie on the steel, but reading was something I worked on from day one. Not because I care that much about being able to sit down and sight read any piece of music, but so I know what the heck is going on musically. I can sight read pretty well on guitar, and learning to read on the steel has made it a lot easier to correlate what I know about scales and theory on regular guitar to the steel. Knowing the notes I'm playing, regardless of bar/pedal position, makes it a lot easier to take licks and scales I know and apply them in different harmonic contexts to make it sound like I know a lot more than I really do on the steel. I've got a pretty solid understanding of the steel's fretboard now, I just wish my technique could keep up.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Dec 2005 11:14 am

Okay, I just had some practical ideas to bridge the gap for steelers. There are several computer tab programs that allow you to enter tab according to your unique copedent, and the program will translate that into standard notation above the tab. But I don't know if any programs will do the reverse, go from standard notation to tab - too many options (which sort of proves my point above - if a computer can't do it, how can we be expected to).

We can use the fact that it is so much easier to transpose on steel than on other instruments. It is actually easier to transpose on steel than to learn to read music in all 12 keys. This is exactly opposite from most instruments. Reading music in any key is something second graders can learn on most instruments. But transposing on most instruments is a mental feat that requires a lifetime of training and practice.

On steel, it is not that hard to learn to read the key of C at the several various pedal/lever positions. And with a little theory study, it is not that hard to learn the chords and scales for the key of C. The leap from numbered intervals with sharps and flats notated is not that far to the lettered intervals with accidental notated. I know there are computer programs that transpose standard notation into any key. Are their programs that can scan standard notation and then transpose it? You just need to always transpose everything into the key of C. If it is to be played in a different key, just put the bar at the right fret. Composers/conductors could always provide the steel parts in the key of C. All they need to know is that the player always plays everything as if it were the key of C, and the bar acts as a capo that automatically transposes into any key needed. Hey, drummers don't need all the notes they can't play - we don't need all the keys we can't read. It may not be elegant, but I think this is a practical work-around.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Dec 2005 11:18 am

Music written for a specific instrument often has a convention of "hints" for things like fingering, bowing, etc. I usually pencil fret numbers on music as I'm learning it, and if that is ambiguous I'll even specify the pedal or knee lever used.

It would be great if there were a standardized hint system for pedal steel. Seeing "7ab" above the staff can convey a lot of information to a pedal steel player, for example.

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ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 1 Dec 2005 12:02 pm

I can't recall any PSG picker that "sight reads" sheet music. Most applications of reading are for learning the piece...then it is either memory or some form of tab.

My learning approach is to take a fake sheet and anotate it with string fret fractions by the notes and activated changes above or below the notes. Standard tab for a 14 string instrument is a bit much.

In general, instrument players that are expected to be flexible are more likely to latch onto the chord structure/interval/fake book/session charts approach to "seeing" music. The more rigid, play it just as it is written and was played last time (classics/Big band) would most likely be the sight readers...particularly while learning the piece, and use the sheet as reference thereafter...memory takes over.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 1 Dec 2005 1:10 pm

One idea: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/011513.html
Another idea:

I can't recall any PSG picker that "sight reads" sheet music. Most applications of reading are for learning the piece...then it is either memory or some form of tab.

I thought the same thing and said as much in a previous post, citing the "Chaconne" from Bach's 2nd violin partita as being impossible. So, Earnest Bovine kindly emailed me a file of him sight-reading the Chaconne. Oh foo. (There are enough minor errors that he doesn't want to post it, but there were sure enough right notes too that it interfered majorly with my snivelfest rotating around the idea that, "It just CAN'T be done!" Maybe not by me... whimper, whimper....)

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 1 Dec 2005 1:11 pm

David -

That's an interesting idea about notating everything in C, then just transposing to whatever fret will give you the correct keys. It's possible on the newer models of digital piano. Just turn that knob till you're in the other key, and sound just right. I don't see it as a practical work-around, however. I see it as a cop-out. Plus, it's inevitable that you'll run out of frets or strings, and you've got to go back and relearn the piece correctly, by ear, in a different position. Also, "Just capoing up" changes the tone of the guitar enough to be problematic, in my opinion.

That's a little off the subject, but I dig what Mike P is saying. Knowing exactly what notes you're playing combined with the knowledge of "which notes are appropriate to play," is the key to being a successful improviser. And it's as easy as taking the time and slamming it into your brain every chance you get. Learning to sight read is the inverse of that operation. Instead of knowing exactly what your fingers are playing, get your fingers to do what your eyes tell them to do.

-MG

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 1 Dec 2005 2:07 pm

One thing that is much harder for non music readers to do is accomplish very complex arrangments among several players easily.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 1 Dec 2005 2:18 pm

It's only called "sight reading" the first time . After that it's just reading. And David, I've played that Chaconne many times.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Dec 2005 2:20 pm

I knew some people would think putting everything in the key of C is a copout. But outside of the guitar world and some jazz pros, most people that read and play have to have the written music to play in all keys. They cannot play in all keys by ear. They cannot transpose spontaneously to any random key. Is that a copout? Most steelers can do that easily. We are key neutral. We just need the intervals, and we can put them in any key by just moving the bar. So we just need one universal key to establish the intervals. C/Am works best for that. Buddy Emmons said when he looks at a pedal steel he sees intervals. Give us the keyless intervals symbolically in the key of C/Am, and we can put it in any key you want with the bar. Now, who wants to adapt Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C# Minor into Am so I can read it (don't forget the double sharps)?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 December 2005 at 02:22 PM.]

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 1 Dec 2005 3:29 pm

John McGann: What I (or they) was referring to is PERFORMANCE. Has anyone graduated with a degree in Steel Guitar Performance? For instance, a horn player, at most Univ. I am acquainted with, must spend 4 years at performance with a minor in other music areas. In the end, he must be able to play anything in the 1001 Real Book from memory---both melody (head) and ad-lib solos at the discretion of the Jury. ---j---

John Bresler · Post by **John Bresler** » 1 Dec 2005 3:42 pm

Actually, there is a professor at the University of Colorado that graduated from the University of California (San Francisco) and pedal steel guitar was his instrument. He is probably the only one ever to do it, but he is an outstanding C6th steel player and always plays at Dick Meis' steel jam in Denver. He's definitly not country but plays some great stuff. Sometimes even some long-hair music. I don't recall his name, but if I think of it I'll post it. So it can be done if you have the willpower to absorb all the music theory and apply it to the steel guitar.