Playing from sheet/book music?

LeRoy Sawyer · Post by **LeRoy Sawyer** » 30 Nov 2005 8:47 am

I want to know if any of you can pick up a piece of sheet/book music and play the notes that are printed. I don’t mean just pick out the melody I mean play the notes/chords and in the proper location on the neck. Most other musical instrument one needs to learn notes and combination of notes to make music and not numbers and letter combinations (tab). Why haven’t we learned to do this and wouldn’t it be much easier to communicate in musical terms rather than notation?

Roy

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 30 Nov 2005 9:13 am

I'm working on it.

The reason steel players don't do it much is that most steel oriented music is learned by ear, traditionally, and so most players haven't needed to learn to read.

I'd also say that many players are self taught, or learn from tab a la the Jeff Newman material. My theory is that Jeff wanted an effective method to get people playing right away. Explaining theory to a pianist is hard enough- on the pedal steel, it is a multi layered onion that would send most rocket scientists to Jack Daniels in a hurry

A great book to check out that has both tab and standard notation is "Manual of Style" Winnie Winston's study of John Hughey, Weldon, Jimmie Crawford and Terry Bethel. Great presentation!

I want to get to know the instrument as completely as possible, and reading does force your hand, for sure. even if I never use it on a job, the knowledge gained will be worth the effort to me.

You need great ears, whether you read, know theory, or "just" play by ear.

Ray speaks the truth below- that middle C can be played in 4 different places on ONE STRING, let alone the other strings. But it IS finite.
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Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 30 November 2005 at 09:15 AM.][This message was edited by John McGann on 30 November 2005 at 09:30 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 30 Nov 2005 9:28 am

Middle C on the piano is one place, one piano key, one finger to poke.

Middle C on the steel can be found in more than one place. Then, add additional simultaneous notes to complicate matters.

I can't see the forest 'cause of all them darn trees. Fortunately tab (and Mike Perlowin's book) make the hurdle easier to overcome.

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 30 Nov 2005 9:44 am

I agree with those who say you need to train your ears. Play everything you can, all types of music. Try to copy the steel parts to learn where it can be played best. Pick out the melodies too. Since the psg is lateral and vertical, instead of more one dimensional and black and white like a piano, there is no correct place to play and particular note. It depends more on where you came from going into a phrase and where you are going with it.
Of course this is just an opinion.
Bo

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Bo Borland

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 30 Nov 2005 9:56 am

I do it all the time. But I can't just look at the music and instantly play it. It takes me a minute or two to figure out what needs to be done,

Granted that conventionmal notation doesn't tell you what pedals or knee levers to use, if you can recognuse the chords outlined by the notes, you can figrure out what chord and pedal position to work out of and proceed from there.

Reading music on the steel is not easy, but it's not impossible either. It takes some knowledge if music theory, and how it's principles relate to what the pedals and Knee levers do.

I don't mean to hype my book, (and Ray, thanks for the plug,) but studying it and the free steel guitar supplement really will help you develope this skill. This is the kind of think I had in mind when I wrote it.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 30 Nov 2005 12:52 pm

What do you think would happen if you went to the University of Miami jazz program, or Berklee School of Music, or Julliard, or pretty much anyplace else like that as a (six-string) guitar performance major, and you tell them "I can play a C in three places on my guitar, so I don't have to read music? I read tab, thanks."

You'll get good at whatever you practice, and you'll find the music you want to play however you can. I want to play some things that are easiest to find and/or comprehend on sheet music, so I try to read. It's no different than learning any other language or skill. I'm not very good at it, but I'm a lot, lot better at it than I was before I started trying. Did I mention - you'll get good at whatever you practice?*

*(Including procrastination, alas....)

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 30 Nov 2005 1:04 pm

What do you think would happen if you went to the University of Miami jazz program, or Berklee School of Music, or Julliard, or pretty much anyplace else like that as a (six-string) guitar performance major, and you tell them "I can play a C in three places on my guitar, so I don't have to read music? I read tab, thanks."

David, I teach at Berklee, and you'd be amazed at how pathetic the level of reading is among guitar players. Sure, it's not as easy as on piano, but it's ridiculous how the tab culture has dumbed down musical awareness to the point where we have instrument operators rather than musicians. Most of the college aged guitarists have learned music from tab, rather than notation. Although it's still the EAR that rules overall, it's a lot easier to understand harmony, chord construction, improvisation etc. if you are conversant in the language of music.

Yeah yeah yeah, there's more to musicianship than being able to read, blah, blah..."I read/know theory, but not enough to hurt my playing" as some will say...at the end of the day, either you can play, or you can't.

Reading skills can open doors to make you a better player.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 30 November 2005 at 01:05 PM.][This message was edited by John McGann on 30 November 2005 at 01:07 PM.]

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 30 Nov 2005 1:18 pm

Quote.
Ray speaks the truth below- that middle C can be played in 4 different places on ONE STRING, let alone the other strings. But it IS finite.
Could we have a bit more explanation as to how to do this?

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 30 Nov 2005 2:01 pm

All on the C6th standard 4th string, pitched A ( levers/pedals as used by Buddy Emmons and many others), concert pitch middle C:

Middle C, pedal that raises 4 and 3 a whole step(usually pedal 7), 1st fret
Same middle C, lever that raises 4 1/2 step, 2nd fret
Same middle C, no pedals, 3rd fret
Same middle C, lever that lowers 4 1/2 step, 4th fret

4 positions for the same note ON THE SAME STRING. No wonder it's so easy

It is finite because you can't play middle C on the 2nd or 1st strings

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 30 November 2005 at 02:09 PM.]

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 30 Nov 2005 2:14 pm

I can read music but, "Not Enough to Hurt My Pickin!"

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 30 Nov 2005 2:44 pm

I can read sheet music good enough to play a non-pedal guitar off of it, especially if the chords are written in. However, it is much more difficult with a pedal steel because of all the different places to find the chords. It's coming closer, though!

Erv

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 30 Nov 2005 3:13 pm

LeRoy: In answer to your paragraph above: YES. I am able to do that. And I've attempted to share that bit of learning in my Book/CD package available thru Bobby Lee (or my site at Amazon.com "Sight Reading for Steel Guitarists, C6)----j----

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 30 Nov 2005 3:25 pm

I can read music but, "Not Enough to Hurt My Pickin!"

I'm sorry, I realize this is an attempt at humor, but there is an underlying assumption which too many people believe to be true: that learning how to read music will somehow make you a worse player. Not only is it not true, it's actually the exact opposite of the truth. Learning to read music will make you a BETTER player.

Reading music and playing by ear are NOT incompatable or mutually exclusive. On the contrary, the two skills compliment each other. Being able to read will make you play by ear better, and being able to play by ear will make you a better reader.

It's true that there are many classicaly trained musicians who can only play what's written and can't play by ear, but the cause of their problem is their lack of a complete musical education, not in the system of conventional notation itself.

It's also true that there are some great pickers sho can't read a note.

But the BEST musicians are those who can do both.

I think there is something very destructive about the attitude that increasing you knowledge is somehow a bad thing. And I think the fact that so many steel players feel this way is one of the things that is holding the instrument back.[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 30 November 2005 at 04:49 PM.]

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 30 Nov 2005 3:28 pm

For John McGann: I can't believe that a school such as Berklee is so lax in allowing students to continue without becoming good readers. It's saddening to hear some of the "reasons" given for not reading real notation by steelers. When my Master of Science in Jazz Music was being conferred at the Univ., my last task was to go before the Jury and prove ability to sight read. ---j--- www.steelguitarbyhughjeffreys.com

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 30 Nov 2005 4:04 pm

It's not like we don't try, Dr. Hugh. I assign reading projects every lesson, but if they don't do the work, it ain't gonna happen.

At least they aren't hurting their playing, eh, Ron?

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Nov 2005 5:04 pm

I can read music well enough to keep me from playing too fast.

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 30 Nov 2005 5:06 pm

This reminds me of the old joke --
How do you get a guitar player to turn their volume down?
Put sheet music in front of them.

I admit, I also fall into that category, though I can play what I read to a small amateurish degree.

-- Marc

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 30 Nov 2005 6:13 pm

Learning a little reading won't hurt anyone's playing.
It used to be necessary in Big Band Dance Music......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Jerry Erickson · Post by **Jerry Erickson** » 30 Nov 2005 7:33 pm

b0b, isn't that too fast AND too loud

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 30 Nov 2005 7:45 pm

Mike hits the nail on the head:

But the BEST musicians are those who can do both.

Like John [Hi John!], I teach in a college music environment (Music Department at the University of New Hampshire) and I am stunned at how many of our well trained students can't play a thing without musical notation in front of them. A truly well-rounded musician can do both: play (or sing) from notation or extemporize.

Now, having said that, I rarely have occasion to play from notation on steel, but I'm sure it would improve my facility on the instrument, my ability to move smoothly around the fingerboard, if I did.
For what it's worth, when I am working out a tab, I always write it out first in standard notation, then go to the steel and do the tab. Must be the after effects of taking four semesters of ear training in college.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, Peavey Heritage VTX

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Nov 2005 10:04 pm

I would like to ask Dr. Jeffreys, Mike P. and others who read music on pedal steel exactly how they do it.

I can read music on piano and sax, but not on guitar. I can sort of read music on steel as long as it is in the key of C, because I can easily match the written notes in the key of C to the scale numbers, and I know how to get all the numbered scale notes on steel at the C fret in the open pedal position. But if the written music is in another key, I'm not good, because I can't easily associate the written note with the numbered scale in all 12 keys. Maybe I could handle G or F, with only one flat or sharp each.

This is the crux of the problem. You have to know all the scales and be able to instantly recognize them in the written music and translate the notes into the number system. No other instrument has to do this. The instrument itself is not the problem. I know all the 12 frets and what root chord and scale I will get at each one. And I can play the numbered scale at each fret. But translating all 12 keys from written music into the numbered scale that I know on the instrument is beyond me.

The other approach is to know the note given at every fret on every string, and with every pedal and lever combination. Then you wouldn't have to translate the written music into the numbered scale. You could just read the notes directly to some particular fret and string and pedal or lever. With 10 strings, 3 pedals and 4 levers, that is over 200 notes just in the octave from the nut to the 12th fret. So where other instruments have to learn 12 notes, we have to learn over 200.

My question to Dr. Jeffreys, Mike P. and others who read music on pedal steel is this - do your really know all those 200+ notes on the instrument, or do you translate the written music into the number system, or what? [This message was edited by David Doggett on 30 November 2005 at 10:08 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Nov 2005 11:02 pm

Let me go a little further here in defense of steel players. Written music was designed for instruments with a one-to-one correspondence between the written notes and the notes on the instrument. That is a very simple relationship. The 6-string guitar has gone beyond that level of complexity by 5 fold (ignoring the duplicate E strings). Written music does not work well for guitar, but people struggle through by learning the notes at all 12 frets on the 5 nonduplicated strings - that is 60 notes on their instrument instead of the 12 notes other instrument players have to learn. Not an easy feat, but many people do it. There is then the added level of complexity that out of this 5-fold duplication one has to choose where to play the note. But usually only two or three of the possibilities are practical.

Now take the pedal steel. On E9 there are 7 nonduplicated strings, times 12 frets equals 84 notes. The standard 3 pedals and four levers change the notes on at least 7 strings, which adds another 84 notes to learn. That gives a total of 168 notes between the nut and the 12th fret on the nonduplicated strings (I was counting the duplicated strings when I said 200+ notes in the above post).

I contend that standard music notation is simply not adequate for the level of complexity of a pedal steel guitar. That is one reason most steelers, even acknowledged masters at the top pro level, don't bother to learn to read standard notation.

Tab is more adequate than standard notation, because it has a one-to-one correspondence with every note the instrument can play. It tells you exactly which string, fret, pedal or lever to use. Consequently, many, if not most, steelers learn tab and can read it. Unfortunately, tab is also incomplete, because it does not provide for timing.

The only complete solution is to have both standard notation and tab. Some instruction materials use this complete method. The standard notation on top gives the timing, and the tab shows where the notes are on the instrument (in the required one-to-one manner). Many steelers can read and use this complete dual notation.

Therefore, I contend it is not us steelers alone who are at fault. Standard notation, the music publishing industry, and composers are simply not up to the level of complexity of this new type of instrument. If you want to compose music for pedal steel, or adapt other instrumental music for pedal steel, standard notation will not do - it is incomplete and not fully usable. We have invented an instrument that is beyond the capabilities of standard notation. Having no adequate written music, most of us have learned to play almost completely by ear, although many of can and do read another incomplete type of notation, tab. And some of us read the only complete system of notation for our instrument, tab and standard notation together.

This situation is not unprecedented in music. Drummers have gone the opposite direction, away from complexity to a simpler notation with a single note repeated over and over for the timing alone. They can't play, and so don't need other notes. The pedal steel has gone the opposite direction to much greater complexity. We have multiple ways to play any given note, scale or chord. Therefore, we need a more complicated system of notation. Standard notation above, with tab below, IS that more complicated system, and lots of us can read it, and some pros write with it in instructional materials.

So there. We are not musical ignoramuses. We have in fact left the rest of the musical world behind and have gone to a higher level of complexity. Pretty good for a bunch of rednecks playing in honky-tonks.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 30 Nov 2005 11:24 pm

David, the answer to your question is that I can tell you the name of any note I am playing, at all times, regardless of pedal position.

It's not so much a matter of memorizing them all, as being able to instantly figure them all out.

I can't instantly sight read, it takes me a minute or two (sometimes longer) to figure it out. As I said, learning to read music on the steel is not easy, but either is it impossible. Like everythiung else with this nutty instrument, you have to study it for a while.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 30 Nov 2005 11:48 pm

I am stunned at how many of our well trained students can't play a thing without musical notation in front of them.

I have to admit, this is also something that upsets me. This is the result of the old European “You vill do vat you are tolt” school of thought, where young musicians are trained to be nothing more than obedient servants, and creativity and imagination are discouraged.

Reading music is a valuable skill, but I have no patience with the school of thought that says it is the ONLY skill worth developing, and I feel that those people who have only been taught to play what’s written, and not use their ears and their brains, have been cheated.

An aside here, when I was in college in the 60s, a music teacher proclaimed in class that the Beatles did not have any musical talent. According to her, real musicians played classical music. Period. If you play anything else you are an untalented hack. I dropped her class shortly after that.

Obviously I love classical music, but I hate the closed minded mentality that all too often surrounds it.

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 1 Dec 2005 12:40 am

I like what the educators in this thread are saying. As a current student, I'm just getting finished with my third semester of private lessons, music theory, ear training, and student ensemble classes. Of them all, my music theory and ear training classes have helped me the most.

South Plains College in Levelland has an interesting musical approach, and it's called a "Commercial Music" degree. The faculty works to train the students to be able to function in an "improv environment," be that country, bluegrass, jazz, blues, or rock. The theory classes and improvisational courses (jazz ensembles, especially) rely heavily on the functional knowledge of modes.

I probably shouldn't have just said "The M Word," but when somebody asks a question like, "Which notes can I play here and have it sound cool?" The fundamental answer is "Notes from whichever mode the chord symbol calls for." There are always people arguing about the need for modes. Regardless if you think you need them,

1.) They do exist,
2.) "Real" musicians play them, whether they know it or not, and
3.) If you want to be a better player, eventually you'll learn them, especially for improv and sight reading.

So, figure out where those groups of notes "live" on your guitar (by ear or by theory), and make sure your fingers can do them without your brain having to think about it. Being fluent in a language involves learning to spell, write, and speak without thinking one way and translating to another. I used to dream in Spanish. One day I hope I can dream in Music.

Sorry for opening that can of worms.

-MG[This message was edited by Michael Garnett on 01 December 2005 at 12:42 AM.]