F# Raise vs G# Lower

Colin Swinney · Post by **Colin Swinney** » 3 Dec 2018 4:14 pm

Currently, I have a knee lever that takes my 7th string F# up to G. I think I'd like to switch it so that it takes the G# down to G instead. I'm just wondering if anyone has any opinions on why or why not this would be a good idea.

The reason I think I'd like to lower string 6 instead is so I can do an 8-6-5 grip on a major 1 chord, then move up the neck through the minor 2nd/3rd, major 4/5 chords etc without having to move to a new grip on 8-7-5.

Also, I've never worked on a psg before (it's a Sho Bud Super Pro), basically I just need to move the rod from string 7 to six, but put it in the lower part of the changer instead?

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 3 Dec 2018 5:08 pm

One truth with PSG is you always have to give up something to get something else.

I like and use the F# to G a lot, but if you think you'd prefer the other change...
Well as you said it's easy to change the function in just a few minutes on those guitars.

Try it for a while and if you don't like it you can alway go back and nothing is lost.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 3 Dec 2018 8:23 pm

I had F# to G# (string 7) on pedal 0 for a few years and really liked it. Eventually I came around to the more common G# to F# knee lever. I like it better because you can go from A to F# in one fell swoop. That's a move you can't do without a bar slant on string 7.

Also, the tuneable split on the knee lever is very handy for a pedals down 7th chord.

Dave Meis · Post by **Dave Meis** » 3 Dec 2018 8:56 pm

Donâ€™t know if you want to add a vertical, but I have F# to G on 7, and G# to G on the vertical. I use them both. Itâ€™s on an Emmons PP, so I canâ€™t go to F# and split it, but I love having both.. VERY useful for very different applications.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 4 Dec 2018 1:44 am

Just a thought - why not do both so you have a choice of grips? Leave the 7th string raise and add an extra rod for the 6th string lower. Disclaimer: I haven't totally thought this through ðŸ˜Š

Tim Russell · Post by **Tim Russell** » 4 Dec 2018 4:17 am

"More is better." (lol) I like Ian's approach. I have both changes, I use them both.

C. D. Maclean · Post by **C. D. Maclean** » 4 Dec 2018 10:02 am

Even more is even better. I have both and a tuned half stop on each. It makes my right knee the minor , bluesy 7th department.ðŸ™‚

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 4 Dec 2018 10:37 am

I have the G#->F# on the same lever that raises my first and second strings. I love the change and use it often - especially with the E to E flat lever and pedals AB, but donâ€™t like it in its present position. It often interferes with the with using the first and second string raises in the pedals down or pedals down + Eb flat lever positions because it produces a split G on the 6th string. Iâ€™ll likely move it to itâ€™s own lever sometime in the future.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 4 Dec 2018 11:11 am

Tim Russell wrote:"More is better."

C. D. Maclean wrote:Even more is even better.

Better for what? To play the devil's advocate here, I will posit that "less is more."

I recently purchased a student model push/pull that needed extensive work for a very nice price. As was common with those old GS-10s, it had only one knee lever -- a RKR that lowered the Es.

The seller was kind enough to ship the instrument to Clem Schmitz, one of the experts on Emmons push/pull guitars. I had Clem go through the instrument and make everything right. In addition, I requested that he move the knee lever to the LKR position, to match my other guitars.

My desire was to have a relatively simple instrument that was easy on the back, easy to set up, tune up, and play. A secondary goal was to explore this simplified, bare-bones copedant, to see how much I could play without the three extra levers I had come to depend on.

After all, virtually all of the tablature written in the wonderful Winnie Winston book from the '70s was written for E9 tuning, three floor pedals, and one knee lever.

I came to the conclusion that I can get by quite nicely with only one knee lever. Sure, there's stuff you can't do, but there's plenty that can be done by learning new and different positions, bar slants, and pulling strings behind the bar.

I've really been getting into playing this little student model with its butt-ugly bowlin' ball 'mica. One reason is the fact that it just sounds so damn good. Another is because it's making me think outside the box, searching for new positions and ways to play without the knee levers I had come to rely on for forty years or more.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 4 Dec 2018 4:08 pm

Jack, lowering 4 is new-fangled. The truly primitive one-lever steel lowers 2 to D and 8 to D#. My first instrument was like that and I feel I may have missed out on some ancient knowledge that has been rendered extinct by the all-pull guitar.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 4 Dec 2018 6:43 pm

Tim Russell wrote:"More is better." (lol) I like Ian's approach. I have both changes, I use them both.

Same here. Split on 6, half stop on 7. The F# to G# with pedals down adds a maj7th. Beautiful, addictive chord that I find I use a lot.

Tim Russell · Post by **Tim Russell** » 4 Dec 2018 7:25 pm

Jack - I knew some one would counter with that. (lol) When these threads come up, someone always mentions Lloyd and his bare bones setup, not even lowering the 4th string, if I'm not mistaken. Unfortunately for me and many others, I don't have the time to devote to being a pro like Lloyd, so I need to install a lot of "cheater" moves to sound halfway decent. Bar slants are a bit sloppy for me, can't ever really seem to get them "in tune," always a bit sharp or flat, especially with the corresponding strings. (lol). I don't care what anyone says you can't slant that 6th string from G# to F#! And then of course, there is Paul Franklin, Mike Johnson, Jimmy Crawford (cluster), and John Hughey with their "over the top" setups. To each his own! Kudos to you for making it work with a simple setup!

BTW, I started on a "bowling ball" mica Emmons student model!

Tony - Same here; 1 & 2 raise interfere with the 6th lower on my RKL. Solution? I suppose I need to install inner/outer knees. That's what's fun about this instrument - always a work in progress! I've played a guitar before that had a right vertical, and it work out well for me, although I know many do not like it. I'm going to install one on mine at some point. That will make a total of 6 knees, and I still need more.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 4 Dec 2018 8:09 pm

I also didnt like g# to f# in conjunction with s1 full raise. Too much conflict particularly using s1.

I view g# to f# as a non necessary change.

On one of my guitars I put s4 E to F# on that lever (a borrow from an old Mike Perlowin coped) and have been happy with it for 20 years.

Colin Swinney · Post by **Colin Swinney** » 4 Dec 2018 11:09 pm

Thanks everyone for the food for thought. I think I'm going to follow Andy's initial advice and just go for it, figuring I can always change it back. Maybe I'll order a few extra rods soon and experiment with some of these other ideas.

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 5 Dec 2018 11:13 am

Please report back after you try it out.

I've always assumed that the greater popularity of lowering 6 rather than raising 7 is due to the ability to slide into it (or out of it, on the way to somewhere else), using the more common chord grips that don't include the 7th string. But that's just a guess.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 5 Dec 2018 11:20 am

I think your idea and reason are solid, Colin. And the rod movement is just as you suspect.
I have both of these changes on my Emmons.
I gravitate towards using the F#-to-G for a kinetic 7th when in the AB-down position, and the G#-to-G to change the open chord position to a minor chord.
Buddy Emmons uses a knee lever on C6th that is analogous to the G#-to-G lower, so that gives it an edge if you can only have one.

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