Some early pedal steels produced by Gibson had that feature:Bill McCloskey wrote:I've never seen a steel where the pickups are on the same side as the tuning pegs.
You Got To Look At This
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
- Jack Hanson
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: 19 Jun 2012 3:42 pm
- Location: San Luis Valley, USA
- Doug Earnest
- Posts: 2132
- Joined: 29 Mar 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Branson, MO USA
- Jack Hanson
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: 19 Jun 2012 3:42 pm
- Location: San Luis Valley, USA
The instrument in the pics is from the collection of the National Music Museum at the University of South Dakota in Vermillion.John Ford wrote:Great pics . Anymore . Do those look like horseshoe pickups?
http://nmmusd.org/Collections
Scroll down to the page entitled "Electric and Electronic Instruments" and "Checklist of Electric Guitars by Gibson." Then look for "NMM 5918. Electric pedal steel guitar by Gibson, Inc., Kalamazoo, Michigan, 1941" and click for more pics.
Jack Hanson, I don't think I totally agree with that thought. Their is just too many things that don't really line up. Knee levers for one, and then their is the PA tone changer. Yes, when you look at the Gibson guitar it is very close in looks and it could be one and someone did their thing to it. I hope we can find out more about this guitar, it may turn out that pedal steel has been around a lot longer than Bud Isasic's.
Thanks, J.R.
Thanks, J.R.
Black Performance SD-10, 2002. Peavey LTD 400 with 15" Eminence EPS 15-C, Sho-Bud Seat, Goodrich L-120 Pedal, Sho-Bud Bar, Picks, Cords. Nothing else.
- Jack Hanson
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: 19 Jun 2012 3:42 pm
- Location: San Luis Valley, USA
- Richard Sinkler
- Posts: 17067
- Joined: 15 Aug 1998 12:01 am
- Location: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
I am no expert, but I am not sure it's a Gibson. Unless they had different versions of their pedal steel. I went to the site Jack posted, and there are way too many differences. Pedals, changer, pickup, knee levers. The knee levers look like clutch pedals from a old car.
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 53 years and still counting.
- Jack Hanson
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: 19 Jun 2012 3:42 pm
- Location: San Luis Valley, USA
I'm certainly no expert, but I agree that it's definitely not a Gibson. Regret that I may have given the impression that it was.Richard Sinkler wrote:I am no expert, but I am not sure it's a Gibson.
In any event, the Gibson influence is unmistakable. The organ-like wooden cabinet, and the keyheads and pickups on the same side of the fretboard are but two similarities.
- Andy DePaule
- Posts: 2576
- Joined: 20 Jun 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
- Contact:
Many were like that
Many of the very early pedal steels were set up like that. It was not a very good system and they had serious issues with returning sharp or flat.Bill McCloskey wrote:I've never seen a steel where the pickups are on the same side as the tuning pegs.
Does not look like anything PA Bigsby built to my limited experience....
Still that instrument looks like it deserves a bit of a clean up just for old time sake.
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
-
- Posts: 85
- Joined: 2 Apr 2007 6:35 am
- Location: California, USA
John, I'm certainly one of the ones that looks forward to more photos of this thing! When you take photos of the front, can you also take some more detailed photos of the "PA Tone Levers"??
This thing is super intriguing. Would also love to know who was the owner of this thing, that might also answer some questions about it. I'm guessing this is a West Coast steel guitar, though the exact maker is unknown. Looks too crude for Paul Bigsby's work, but the "PA Tone Levers" might indeed be made by him.
Looking forward to more photos!
Deke
This thing is super intriguing. Would also love to know who was the owner of this thing, that might also answer some questions about it. I'm guessing this is a West Coast steel guitar, though the exact maker is unknown. Looks too crude for Paul Bigsby's work, but the "PA Tone Levers" might indeed be made by him.
Looking forward to more photos!
Deke
- Andy DePaule
- Posts: 2576
- Joined: 20 Jun 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
- Contact:
The PA Letters?
To my eye the "PA" Letters on those tone levers look close to, but not quite the same as lettering Bigsby used*, but the workmanship looks so different.
Also those levers have roller nuts on a steel that looks like it was made so long ago, 30's or 40's maybe?
I've only seen roller nuts on a steel made by him in the early 60's.
*A little like the "PA" on that Fry Pan that was auctioned not too long ago.
Would be good to see closer and better detailed photos, but my guess with far less experience is not Bigsby stuff. His work had a whole different look to it.
Also those levers have roller nuts on a steel that looks like it was made so long ago, 30's or 40's maybe?
I've only seen roller nuts on a steel made by him in the early 60's.
*A little like the "PA" on that Fry Pan that was auctioned not too long ago.
Would be good to see closer and better detailed photos, but my guess with far less experience is not Bigsby stuff. His work had a whole different look to it.
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
-
- Posts: 85
- Joined: 2 Apr 2007 6:35 am
- Location: California, USA
Andy, my guess is that it's probably a combination of eras.
After all, knee levers weren't even a CONCEPT until the early 60's, right?
If I had to lay money on it, I'd say the steel itself was built in the 40's with those Rickenbacker pickups and the PA Tone Levers.
The roller nuts and the knee levers were probably added in the 60's.
There's lots of other really odd stuff on this machine! But it definitely doesn't seem locked into one era, probably modified as it went along.
Deke
After all, knee levers weren't even a CONCEPT until the early 60's, right?
If I had to lay money on it, I'd say the steel itself was built in the 40's with those Rickenbacker pickups and the PA Tone Levers.
The roller nuts and the knee levers were probably added in the 60's.
There's lots of other really odd stuff on this machine! But it definitely doesn't seem locked into one era, probably modified as it went along.
Deke
- Andy DePaule
- Posts: 2576
- Joined: 20 Jun 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
- Contact:
Your judgement
Hi Deke,
Your judgement has to be better than mine with all your collecting experience.
First time I saw this I thought it was a sewing machine!
Looking at the PA tone changers it looks like the roller nut part was cast in when they were made. Still I don't think it looks like his work.
I think your right about it being from the 40's and possibly the knee levers were added much later?
The pedals while lined up just like the ones he did on Speedy's guitar don't look like his work or his casting.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Zane Beck was putting knee levers on non pedal steels in the years before Slowly.
Too bad it's not close enough for you to go have a look.
Will be interesting to see more photos. Seeing the underside would be very educational to say the least.
Whatever the case, Would be a very interesting item to save and restore.
BTW, I really liked your two books. Made for a fun and educational read.
Best wishes,
Andy
Your judgement has to be better than mine with all your collecting experience.
First time I saw this I thought it was a sewing machine!
Looking at the PA tone changers it looks like the roller nut part was cast in when they were made. Still I don't think it looks like his work.
I think your right about it being from the 40's and possibly the knee levers were added much later?
The pedals while lined up just like the ones he did on Speedy's guitar don't look like his work or his casting.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Zane Beck was putting knee levers on non pedal steels in the years before Slowly.
Too bad it's not close enough for you to go have a look.
Will be interesting to see more photos. Seeing the underside would be very educational to say the least.
Whatever the case, Would be a very interesting item to save and restore.
BTW, I really liked your two books. Made for a fun and educational read.
Best wishes,
Andy
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
-
- Posts: 85
- Joined: 2 Apr 2007 6:35 am
- Location: California, USA
Hey Andy, I also have heard and I think I made a comment on another post about Zane Beck who was doing some kind of add on with knee levers long before Bud and Webb and Slowly. J.R.
Black Performance SD-10, 2002. Peavey LTD 400 with 15" Eminence EPS 15-C, Sho-Bud Seat, Goodrich L-120 Pedal, Sho-Bud Bar, Picks, Cords. Nothing else.
- Kenny Davis
- Posts: 1370
- Joined: 10 Apr 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Great State of Oklahoma
I got to lay hands on this thing today...John and I used to play together when we were younger and prettier.
What ever it is, it's certainly intriguing. Hope he doesn't mind me posting a couple of pics that I took. He might have some that show more detail to post later.
On the neck with the strings, you will see strings 2,3,4, and 5 are the ones raised. Andy noticed that the tone changer is cast in one piece. You will see on the neck with the strings, the cast "nut" opens on 2 & 3, then 4 & 5 and has a machined roller for each pair. Pushing downward on the top of the finger pushes the larger grooved roller onto the string to raise. If the pedal cables were operable, they would pull the finger down over the string. The neck without strings differs as it only has a single roller for #2 & #3 strings, and is mounted differently. The frets are unusual...they appear to be brass, but covered with a very thin wood. Position markers appear to be raised wood dowels.
Here's a shot of the underside showing knees and whatever else there is! I found the storage bags interesting - all but one are made from either sea turtle or alligator!
I find it to be like a bad wreck...I can't keep from looking at it...it would be great to know the history!
What ever it is, it's certainly intriguing. Hope he doesn't mind me posting a couple of pics that I took. He might have some that show more detail to post later.
On the neck with the strings, you will see strings 2,3,4, and 5 are the ones raised. Andy noticed that the tone changer is cast in one piece. You will see on the neck with the strings, the cast "nut" opens on 2 & 3, then 4 & 5 and has a machined roller for each pair. Pushing downward on the top of the finger pushes the larger grooved roller onto the string to raise. If the pedal cables were operable, they would pull the finger down over the string. The neck without strings differs as it only has a single roller for #2 & #3 strings, and is mounted differently. The frets are unusual...they appear to be brass, but covered with a very thin wood. Position markers appear to be raised wood dowels.
Here's a shot of the underside showing knees and whatever else there is! I found the storage bags interesting - all but one are made from either sea turtle or alligator!
I find it to be like a bad wreck...I can't keep from looking at it...it would be great to know the history!
- Andy DePaule
- Posts: 2576
- Joined: 20 Jun 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
- Contact:
Boy that just deepens the mystery...
Oh Boy the photos just deepen the mystery...Kenny Davis wrote:
Here's a shot of the underside showing knees and whatever else there is! I found the storage bags interesting - all but one are made from either sea turtle or alligator!
I find it to be like a bad wreck...I can't keep from looking at it...it would be great to know the history!
In the second photo it looks like bike cables from the pedals and knee levers. Also is that a ladies handbag attached to the side in the lower right?
Maybe that was for picks and bar?
What makes me think it is not PA Bigsby steel is that he was a talented machinist and casting specialist for years before building steel guitars. That would be his years of work with Crocker Motorbikes. This work seems to be not close to that standard.
It's such an odd ball item I'd love to see if someone got it cleaned up and back to working again.
Looking forward to seeing more photos. We have yet to see the front? Maybe a mane there?
Also to see a single shot of the whole underside may help figure out how it was set up.
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
- Jack Hanson
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: 19 Jun 2012 3:42 pm
- Location: San Luis Valley, USA
- Bob Muller
- Posts: 891
- Joined: 9 Jan 2008 11:50 am
- Location: Oregon, USA