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Topic: Stiff Sperzel keys |
Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2018 10:17 pm |
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I have a very nice Emmons D10 SKH with Sperzel keys some slightly stiff and a few very stiff. I have seen this problem many times with Sperzels. Grovers won’t fit because the pin is in wrong location. I could drill new pin holes but the original hole would not cover. Has anyone solved this problem? I would like to know the solution. I don’t know of a replacement key and Sperzel no longer makes this key.
Thanks,
Jerry
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http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 3:13 am
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| I was told by a guitar builder that they would run them with a drill for a short period and that seemed to loosen them up some. |
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Earl Terry
From:
norwalk Iowa, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 4:43 am
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| I used a small drill bit to remove the end covers. They are only plastic. I found the lube turned to almost concrete. Soaking in degreaser for a few days removes the factory grease. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 5:21 am
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its an issue, the tuners from that period, per Sperzel, had grease that hardened.
While they don't come apart to clean the worm shaft , what is recommended is soaking them in something like Diesel Fuel or solvent to soften them , then turn the heck out of them. This was recommended by Sperzel . They may even do it for you if you ask them nicely, maybe. At least I was told this by others.
They do come apart somewhat which will allow some bits and chunks of hardened grease to fall out . I did 20 on an 83 Push Pull, and 10 on a mid 80's Sho Bud. Most did not come apart. those that loosened up did so somewhat but not all the way. A real pain. Repeat. A real pain.
There are no direct replacements for the Sperzel Tuners, according to Sperzel. Worse, the shaft sizes and mounting screw holes and PINS do not match Klusons or Grovers.
Another issue, the Tuning Button Heads on many are the Larger size causes a conflict with C6, 1st string and E9th 10th string. The smaller Button Heads are available.
Me, I'm at the point now where if any Steel has these tuners on them ( from that era) I think twice about the purchase. I now ask the question in advance .
old thread
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=318231&highlight=sperzel
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 6:27 am
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Remove them all,soak them for several days, maybe even a week, in WD 40 or similar,[kerosene will work too] in a jar so they are all submerged , turning and working them well, once or twice each day.. When they have loosened up, soak them for a few days in a mixture of trans fluid or light motor oil, and WD 40, at maybe 50-50.. That WILL work.That grease in Sperzals gets like concrete..bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 9:13 am
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I was able to take all 20 apart which I did, then I soaked them in lacquer thinner which left all the parts spotlessly clean, pack d them with white lithium grease (that may be where I went wrong) and put them on the guitar and they are only slightly better. Not acceptable to me. I am now considering driving an aluminum rod into the pin holes and polishing them flush, they would be hardly visible, Then put Grovers on it. It is a nice guitar but I can’t stand tight tuning keys.
My next question is where to buy the Grovers and be sure the barrel nuts are correct length.
Any help would be appreciated.
Jerry
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 10:55 am
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You soaked them in lacquer thinner,, ok, that should have done it, but not if it was for too short a time.. i would have had them in there a week, sealed up with a lid, and twice a day worked them well before submerging in the solvent....
One more trick up my sleeve, if it doesn't help temporarily, then all your Sperzals are shot internally which is VERY odd..
Try heating a few of your tuners with a hair dryer set to high so they are pretty hot to the touch, and then work them while still hot... If they are still stiff, the parts inside are simply bad. If they do loosen up when heated, you must get that stiff old grease out by soaking them and working them... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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William Holloman
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 11:39 am
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| Sperzel told me that they could refurbish mine, or they had new ones. The problem is that the string shafts on the new ones are a little longer than the originals, as I had to purchase one some time ago. Therefore, the ends would touch on #5 and #6. Grinding them off was not an option for me. The string holes are too close to the ends for that. Wish I could find a good replacement...pin holes, or not. |
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John Lacey
From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 12:04 pm
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| I complained to Jim Aycoth about it and for a nominal fee he shipped me two tuner heads loaded with Schaller tuners. Did the trick. Don’t know how it would approaching the Emmons Co. now. |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 2:12 pm
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Bob, I had them complete apart and soaked in lacquer thinner about a week. There was no sign of the old lube. I might should not have used white lithium, I have never really liked it. Maybe wheel bearing grease might have been better. I don’t know what is so different in design or material but I have never seen a Grover get tight like the Sperzels. I have not seen a guitar with Sperzels that did not have some tight keys.
Jerry
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 5:37 pm
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I recommend that you not use WD40 anywhere near a steel guitar (or any guitar). Save it for garage door springs. It's a "dirty" solvent that leaves a ton of contaminants behind. It's a water dispersant and a rust inhibitor - NOT a cleaner.
Every tech I know (Including me) uses naphtha. It's the cleanest, most benign solvent you can use on an instrument - safe on all common guitar finishes and formica and leaves no contaminants behind. Does a great job on built up oil/grease and removes almost all sticker adhesive residue.
Retail Ronson lighter fluid in a plastic squeeze bottle is naphtha with some small incidental amounts of colorant and odorizer - the squeeze bottle is handy for flushing out tuning keys and can be refilled from a bulk naphtha container.
DON't use "charcoal lighter", which is more like WD-40 - full of contaminants.
Gallon and quart cans of naphtha are often labeled "VM&P Naphtha" (Varnish & Painters Maker's Naphtha" Same thing.
"Mineral Spirits" is also fairly safe, just not as clean as naphtha.
I've removed that lubricant (which wasn't Sperzel's fault - it was a supplier error) and used Teflon types or just oil-type Teflon lube. I don't suggest oil-based Teflon except on sealed tuners. On anything open use the non-oil type instead.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 10:33 am
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Jerry mine came new with grovers. Did most of the early ones not come that way? Anyway, mine still works like new. Your post caused me to pull it out of the closet and check it. However, I should add it's seen very little use. Most SKH's have a lot of miles on em.
b. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 12:48 pm
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| Jerry Roller wrote: |
Bob, I had them complete apart and soaked in lacquer thinner about a week. There was no sign of the old lube. I might should not have used white lithium, I have never really liked it. Maybe wheel bearing grease might have been better. I don’t know what is so different in design or material but I have never seen a Grover get tight like the Sperzels. I have not seen a guitar with Sperzels that did not have some tight keys.
Jerry |
Yeah thats pretty odd.. It wasn't a hardened lube problem, so what could have changed I wonder??.. they were either that tight from the factory, or something "warped" over time but that doesn't seem likely... Can't see how small metal parts can change over time if they were machined and fit with proper clearances upon initial manufacture..
I don't like them much myself, I prefer Grovers, but I must say I've never seen them tighten up as badly as yours are, and not be able to get them decently usable.. Sounds like improper tolerances of some type... good luck getting it sorted out.... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 1:47 pm
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I am thinking of trying to get some Lucas oil treatment in them. It is pretty thick and very “slick”.
Jerry
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 4:52 pm
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| Might use a small reamer the right size an make the existing screw hole perfectly round,then make some aluminum dowels turned on metal lathe to fill screw holes. Make screw holes for new set of your favorite keys. Basically the same way you would do a wooden key head when the screw holes do not match the new keys. Yes if you get the sticky keys working please share your fix. |
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Butch Pytko
From:
Orlando, Florida, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2018 12:59 pm
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Jerry, I have the same exact problem you have with my Emmons D-10 SKH. I took the Sperzels off, soaked them, and soaked them some more. Then I cleaned them, and cleaned them some more--I don't know how much cleaner they could be! Then I lubed them, reinstalled, and they are WORSE than before! I can only guess the keys must be either breaking down because of age, or they're just tearing themselves up--I suspect both!
Mike Cass has posted here in the past about changing the Sperzels with the Mini Grovers. He said he used a jig to align for the drilling of holes for the Grover pins. He highly recommended the Mini Grovers. I also suspect that Steel Guitar East knows about changing out the bad Sperzels. I'm going to check with both of them. |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2018 8:39 pm
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It’s too bad that the Grover will not cover and hide the pin hole that the Sperzel pin fit.
Jerry
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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John Lacey
From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 15 Nov 2018 6:25 am
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| Does anybody have access to SKH keyheads that haven’t been routed yet? It seems there’s a few people with this problem. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 15 Nov 2018 12:20 pm
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I read somewhere that Sperzel tuners have a 12 to 1 ratio. I was thinking about replacing the Sperzels on a Rains with Grovers that are 18 to 1. Now I'm wondering if the stiffness of the Sperzels is what has been causing problems with making fine tuning adjustments. The Sperzels feel like they are well built, but they are stiff.
I could live with extra holes on the headstock piece if it meant significantly better tuning. But drilling new holes in exactly the right locations has me a bit intimidated.
Is there a particular vintage of Sperzel that is good, or do they all eventually get stiff?
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 15 Nov 2018 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Hamilton
From:
California Central Coast
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Posted 15 Nov 2018 12:55 pm Tuners
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| Sent mine back to Sperzel for servicing, they did a great job, work like new. |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2018 3:28 pm
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I spoke with a guy at Sperzel. He was no help whatsoever? Just said soak them in naptha. I think I am going to put Grovers on it.
Jerry
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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Roy Peterman
From:
Muncy Valley, Pennsylvania
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Posted 16 Nov 2018 10:26 am
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| I had spoken to you almost 2 years ago about the Sperzels, Jerry. I replaced some on a SKH with new ones ordered from Lori at Sperzel. She was a great help in ordering the right ones. Mine have a slightly shorter barrel on them so you don't have to grind the barrels down on the 5th and 6th strings. They have a couple of different barrel lengths. Anyhow, they have the same "footprint" as the originals that were installed on my SKH. The buttons can be interchanged if they don't match up. I have a set (new ones) that I ordered at the time for the C6th neck, but I didn't change them out as the original ones were OK. Certainly, the Grover tuners are really great tuning machines (different footprint), but the Sperzels are great too. If you need a set or if I can help you, let me know. |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2018 10:39 am
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Roy, I called and spoke with a guy at Sperzel. He said they don’t make that key any longer. Just told me to soak them in kerosene. I do need some keys. I hate to have to fill holes to install Grovers. Could you contact me at rollermusic@cox.net about the keys you have?
Thanks,
Jerry
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Nov 2018 2:36 pm
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| On a lot of tuners, the screw that holds the button cannot be tightened down too much! When you do that, it just binds the worm shoulder against the case. What I'd recommend is to clean them good, using a solvent, and then oil and tighten them only enough to hold the button in place and keep the button from feeling "loose". Then, apply a small drop of clear nail polish where the screwhead is. That method (or just some blue Loctite on the screw thread) is all that's required to keep the screw from loosening. |
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