Sierra Elegante U-14 question

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Is anyone familiar with this model?
I'm most interested in if happens to be a triple raise. One would think on an 8 pedal guitar it would be.
Thanks.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

When was it made? My Sierra Olympic was built in 1978, and it's double-raise. I bought a Sierra Crown in 1983 that was triple-raise, so the change from double to triple happened during that 5-year time span.

Tom Bradshaw modified my Olympic to get triple raise on one string where I needed it. It can be done.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Built in 1992; so it would be triple raise.
Thanks.
Any comments in general?
I've seen one Sierra and thought it was a nicely machined guitar.
Keyless operation and a 25" scale make it attractive to me, in addition to all those strings.

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Hi Charlie!

I used to own a Sierra S14 with Bill Stafford's set up. In fact, I had the guitar at the 2004 TSGA convention and Bill told me he thought it was maybe the second guitar he built while at Sierra. As such, I guess it could have been a "Stafford Elegante" prototype. It was made in 1983 and is based on the Sierra "Crown" series guitar with Sierra's original design keyless tuners. It has a triple raise/double lower changer and since it pre-dates the official beginning of the "Stafford Elegante" guitars, I would have to say all "Stafford Elegante" guitars will have a triple raise changer.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Bill Stafford · From: Gulfport,Ms. USA

Glenn, you beat me to the punch..All is as you say. You probably know more about it than I do. That is a very good instrument and will last a lifetime.
It was a great honor for me that Sierra named this model the "Stafford Elegante'".
Bill Stafford

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

OK so what is the difference between
my '83 "Al Petty Model" S-14 7+5,
and Stafford Elegante S-14?

Hmmm. Mine is not keyless for one.
I am still not sure what model name it is derived from.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

The 'Crown' seems to be the concensus.
Well, you know how the Al Petty model would be appealing to someone who's driving a Corolla. Just think what I could do with all those pedals and levers! when I can't get up to 55 with mine.
But it's a heck of a machine. I'm still thinking about it.
This forum is not exactly a place where you stay satisfied with what you've got. All those pictures....
Thanks all, for your responses.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Charlie, I got one of these around 1990. It was a beautiful red axe with pinstriping. The model # was SCM14 SE. "Sierra Crown Master" 14 "Stafford Elegante". Top of the line model with gearless tuners.
8 pedals, 7 KLs. Modular pickup, coil tap switch, tone control.

Triple raise, double lower and the changer was full with all those levers but it had about everything you could ever need on a guitar.
And you could add pulls via the tandem block method if needed.

I'm quoting all this from my somewhat suspect memory, but I do remember it was a great playing instrument and I wish I had not let it get away from me. I sold it when I went back to playing D10's.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

"And you could add pulls via the tandem block method if needed."

What is this, I have a guess, but will ask anyway.
DD

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I'm curious too, David.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

For a Sierra, anyway, it works like this.

Also know as the "Master/Slave" method, the tandem block is just that, a block with 2 holes drilled in it, and 2 pull rods (side by side) running through it.

Say you want to add a B to C raise to string 5, but have no more raise holes...

The block is put on one of the exisitng string 5 raise rods (the Master rod) a few inches from the changer, and another rod is inserted through an unused raise hole on the string 6 raise finger, through the tandem block, to the bell crank for the pedal or lever you want the change on.

A lock coller is put on the Master rod on the keyhead side of the block, and another lock collar is put on the Slave rod on the Changer side of the block.

(Again, this is only for Sierra, I don't know that it would work on other brands.)

The slave rod has NO spacers on it (because you don't want it to raise the 6th string).
When you hit the pedal or lever the slave bellcrank/rod is on, it pulls the the raise rod on the 5th string.
You tune the note at the endplate using the slave rod that runs through the string 6 raise hole (this can be done because the tuning actually occurs where the rod meets the bellcrank in the delrin bushing - it's a Sierra thing).

So basically, all you need to add another raise when all your raises are used, is another nearby raise (or lower) changer finger hole, a rod/bellcrank assembly (minus the spacers), and the block (which is just a small piece of metal or whatever, wood would work, I guess) with 2 holes drilled to accomodate the master/slave assembly, and two lock collars).

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 04 November 2005 at 09:15 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Tandem block; I see. Thanks, Pete.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Charlie, I have to ask, do you really want 14 strings? Clearly this works for some people, but most player use 10 or 12.

I think this is a valid subject for a new thread.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

quote:
OK so what is the difference between
my '83 "Al Petty Model" S-14 7+5,
and Stafford Elegante S-14?

Ummm, you don't need the warden's permission to play the Stafford Elegante?....

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Pete, thanks for explaining the tandem block feature [that I alluded to in my post] for the guys. I would've responded earlier but just got in.
This system was all explained in the owners manual that came with my SCM14SE along with other essential info.

I don't know if the Session or the new series uses these threaded bushings or not, so finding additional parts for a Crown series might be iffy as I believe the pull rods are a different dia.

Charlie, if you get this guitar, try to get a manual for it. If the guitar is loaded up with 8/7, you might not want to add anything to it, but it's good info to have if you need it.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Well, I know one thing for sure. If Bill Stafford could come up with some of the ideas for the Sierra guitars and on top of that built a 14 string for Julian Tharpe then anything "Mr. Smooth" had anything to do with at Sierra had to be first class workmanship. I learned a lot of steel info from Bill since we met earlier this year. He could very easily write a book on steel guitar. Sometimes I could just kick myself for not meeting him sooner. We only live an hour from each other. He's done more for Psg in the state of Mississippi that anyone I know.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Yeah Howard....
and if Bill calls you it ain't collect...

Still don't know what model this Al Petty unit is derived from.
Session I guess, but not sure.

Bill Stafford · From: Gulfport,Ms. USA

Sure is nice to see all this interest in the 14 string units.
The guitar we built at Sierra for Al Petty was before the Session models were born. This steel was a custom order for Al with his specified tuning. I am sure the tuning chart is on the net somewhere.
The 14 string unit we built for Julian was not one of the "universal" models. Julian explained it very simply to me-"...the first seven strings are tuned to E9, the bottom seven strings are tuned to E6". Julian called it his E96 tuning. This man was a monster player on any tuning he wanted to play. He also told me that if you just know the notes required to make any chord, any tuning you use will allow you to pick or play these required notes-"...no big deal".
We all can hear this perfectly in the performances of Chalker, Emmons, Alvino, Joaquin, Speedy West, Joe Wright, Cowboy Eddy Long and especially in Julian's playing.
In the early 70s I was playing a D-12 custom made pedal steel made by myself and Arthur Smith. This steel had the E9 extended chord selection. ( I loved the low note register as I have been fascinated with the low haunting notes of a cello). I wanted them on my steel guitar. My strings 10,11 & 12 were E, B and the low E that I liked even way back then. My C6 had a high A as string one as I just loved the chord resolution of the 6th note on top of the chord structure. My 10, 11 & 12 strings were tuned to F, C and a very low F.
Upon retirement from the navy in 1973 I moved back home to Gulfport, Ms. The local music store brought Jeff Newman down to do a clinic. Jeff was playing a D-10 at that time, but he played some incredible C6 things on his E9 with the simple explanation that by holding the E to Eb lever in, you will have almost all the notes that you play in the C6 tuning with the C6 chord on the first fret. (Having to dodge the D string of course). I went home that night and broke out all my many stacks of tuning charts I had accumulated over the past forty years or less. My double 12 on the current guitar proved that both tunings could be incorporated fully into one set of strings if I added the G# note on top and the low E, B and E as strings 12,13 & 14. Then I would have the complete set of strings for both tunings-if the Sierra changer would pull the standard tenth string B to D. Sierra informed me in a few days that their changer was capable of doing that change. I ordered my first 14 string unit that day. C6 on fret one was a bonus for me. All my standard C6 changes now pulled the same changes in the B tuning. The compatibility of the E and B chords only enhanced these changes and many could be used in either tuning...
Many extra chords developed in the E tuning because of that high G# on top. Elevenths and thirteenths were now there using all 14 strings should you desire to have that full sounding chord. Now I also had 48 inversions of the E chord without using any pedals or levers on the open fret. I have never "counted" strings to play grips etc. It takes three notes for the basic chord and once you are familiar with where the notes are, the grips are exactly the same in both tunings.
This has been too long. Contact me if you desire and I will be more than happy and priviledged to talk with you. Thanks folks.
Bill Stafford
(Just enjoy your music regardless of how many strings you decide to use. Play pretty music)

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Bill thanks again for more great info.
So I guess my steel was one of Al Petty's.

I can see what you mean about the grips,
I am looking at your setup closer at the moment.

I find using a less bassy tone allows the low notes to sound,
and clash less with bass lines,
but it is a bit more bright up top then.
Then again steels tend to cut through nicely when bright up top.

Still waiting on that CD and strings.
The mails are REAL slow lately.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 November 2005 at 10:44 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I sure appreciate Bill's brief history of the SE and the thinking that went behind it.
It's in line with my reflections on an ideal steel. I love the range of the cello myself, and the range of a U-14 is, to me, what it's all about.
I like the keyless head, which allows a 25" scale. Most impressive on the SE is the quality of the machine work I've seen in the pictures.
Things like that attract me.

Again I am embarassed by my lack of steel knowlege; I thought ya'll were talking about Al Petty the race car driver. He plays steel? Who knew?

The guitar in question may still be available. (Be still my beating heart.)
At $1700 it's a chunk of change for me, but if it's a keeper, that would amortize over my remaining lifetime.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Charlie et al; Here is some head scratching material for you re the evolution of the E9/B6 uni. Will leave the Bb6/Eb9 and similar for another day.

Here are the “starting point” tunings for a number of E9/C6 related users. These show the thought patterns of these folk, and how the D10 becomes the various versions of the E9/B6 uni, and grew to 12 & 14 strings.

The Small letters (d#,a,etc.) indicate that the string is an octave lower than one might expect.

NC = no change activated.

BE = Buddy Emmons…might as well be Jimmy Day, Paul Franklin, Bobby Black, Tommy White, etc. for the E9 10 string base tuning.

Sier’ = SIERRA…might as well be Joe Wright, and a number of others for the 12 string uni.

JT = Julian Tharpe.

BS = Bill Stafford.

PST = my version of the E9/B6 14 string uni.

PSTL = my 30” neck 14 string (tuned for C9/G6).

THE E9 RELATED GROUPING:

    


      BE    SIER’JT   BS   PST  PSTL        


      STD   UNI  14ST UNI  UNI  UNI


      E9    E9   E96  E9   E69  C69


STR   NC    NC   NC   NC   NC   NC





1     F#    F#   F#   G#   F#   a


2     d#    d#   d#   F#   d#   E


3     G#    G#   G#   d#   G#   D


4     E     E    E    G#   E    C


5     B     B    B    E    B    G


6     G#    G#   G#   B    G#   E


7     F#    F#   E    G#   F#   D


8     E     E    C#   F#   E    C


9     D     B    B    E    B    G


10    B     G#   G#   B    G#   E


11    --    E    E    G#   E    C


12    --    B    C#   E    C#   A


13    --    --   B    B    B    G


14    --    --   E    E    E    C

THE C6 RELATED GROUPING:

CC = Curley Chalker.

-1 = if one fret lower.

L> = the change activated to get the B6 equivalent on the uni.



      BE    CC   IF   SIER’BS   PST  PSTL 


      STD   --   STD  UNI  UNI  UNI  UNI


      C6    C6   B6   B6   B6   B6   G6


STR   NC    NC   -1   L>   L>   L>   L>





1     d     E    c#   F#   G#   F#   a                   


2     E     C    D#   d#   F#   d#   E


3     C     A    B    G#   d#   G#   D


4     A     G    G#   E    G#   D#   B


5     G     E    F#   B    D#   B    G


6     E     C    D#   G#   B    G#   E


7     C     A    B    F#   G#   F#   D


8     A     F    G#   E    F#   D#   B


9     F     D    E    B    D#   B    G


10    C     A    B    G#   B    G#   E


11    --    --   --   E    G#   E    C


12    --    --   --   B    E    C#   A


13    --    --   --   --   B    B    G


14    --    --   --   --   E    E    C

Notice that the CC C6 is taking a different road than the BE etc. C6…it has the same FM9 chord starting on string 8 but the adds Dm11 (str 9).

For the uni’s shown, NC gets the I chord/tuning; L> gets the V chord/tuning; and if we continue, P1P2 gets the IV chord/tuning on the open strings.

Looking at the PSTL uni L> (shown as G6) it can be seen how easy it is to modify (via pedals and levers) to get a great number of 3,4,5,6 and 7 tone chords using adjacent strings.

Might as well add the P1P2 effect while I have the file up.

THE A6 RELATED GROUPING:

    


      BE    SIER’JT   BS   PST  PSTL        


      STD   UNI  14ST UNI  UNI  UNI


      E9    E9   E96  E9   E69  C69


      A6    A6   A6   A6   A6   F6 


STR   P1P2  P1P2 P6P7 P1P2 P1P2 P1P2





1     F#    F#   F#   G#   F#   a


2     d#    d#   d#   F#   c#   F


3     A     A    A    D#   A    D


4     E     E    E    A    E    C


5     C#    C#   C#   E    C#   A


6     A     A    A    C#   A    F


7     F#    F#   E    A    F#   D


8     E     E    C#   F#   E    C


9     D     C#   B    E    C#   A


10    C#    A    G#   C#   A    F


11    --    E    E    A    E    C


12    --    B    C#   E    C#   A


13    --    --   B    A    A    F


14    --    --   E    E    E    C

NA = not applicable.

There is some variation re what P1P2 does for different players. Notice that Julian Tharpe took a different road here. Julian used P6P7 and only changed the top half of the strings.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 07 November 2005 at 07:16 AM.]

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I'm studying the 14-string set ups as I did the 12-strings. Finding a good amp set up to handle the low end string voicings is what I'm curious about now. I may explore the E96th tuning Julian used a little later on if I can find one of his old guitars for sale somewhere. I really got interested in JT's E96 tuning when BS explained it to me several months ago. Combining 7 strings from E9th with 7 strings from the C6th. I'm just going to sit on it for a while and continue to study it.

Bill Stafford · From: Gulfport,Ms. USA

David, I mailed the strings and cds a few weeks ago. Can not vouch for the mail system here on the Mississippi coast though. This is the very first time I have seen the U.S. Mail system completely shut down due to the big storm (Katrina) we had here earlier. Let me know if they do not show up in a few days or so. Will try FEDEX or another route. Sorry for that delay, and do not bother to remit due to this hold up. My treat.
You are still in one of my very favotite spots on this earth. Enjoy.
Bill Stafford

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Although I must admit that the sheer volume of info in these charts makes my head swim

there is an error in the 12 string E9/B6 tuning. The 10th and 11th strings are reversed. The tuning (high to low) is
F# D# G# E B G# F# E B G# E B

My thought on U-14 is that I can't justify the size the bottom string must be and mechanical problems that arise from having strings ranging from 011 all the way up to transatlantic cable on the same neck. I just couldnt get used to wrestling with that big bottom string. I use a 079 for my low B on my U-12 guitars and that's low enough for me. Just personal opinion.

Bill Stafford is one of my favorite players to listen to. Wonderful tone and execution -- very talented musician. I just couldn't play his guitar. I've tried.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

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