One of our newer forumites is thinking of graduating from his Carter Starter to either a 12 or 14 stringer.
Anybody here with a 14 stringer? What are the advantages and disadvantages 0f having 14 strings?
Personally I play a 12.
14 strings?
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Mike Perlowin
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Ricky Littleton
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I have always thought my next "new" steel would be a 14. I've been playing around with tuning plans for such and there seems to be a WORLD of possibilities when you add the additional 2 strings above a 12.
Listening to Bill Stafford (Mr. Smooth) and dear departed Julian Tharpe really shows what the 14's can do. Especially Julian and that tuning he used.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Ricky....
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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd, Nashville 112,Hilton Volume pedal, Peterson VS-II Tuner
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Bo-Bro, Ibanez Auto-Wah, PX4 Pandoras Box
Listening to Bill Stafford (Mr. Smooth) and dear departed Julian Tharpe really shows what the 14's can do. Especially Julian and that tuning he used.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Ricky....
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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd, Nashville 112,Hilton Volume pedal, Peterson VS-II Tuner
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Bo-Bro, Ibanez Auto-Wah, PX4 Pandoras Box
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Curt Langston
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Nathan Delacretaz
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When I started up a few years ago, the strongest argument I heard against 12-strings, let alone 14, and odd copedents was the relative difficulty of finding good instructional material... Now my feeling is that "more is better" as long as the guitar is mechanically solid and you're grounded in the musical things an extended setup can do for you.
The number of strings and the copedent also seem to matter a lot less if you're not primarily concerned with the straight-ahead country sound.
[belated disclaimer: my 3 yrs. of steeling have been on a 10-string E9!]<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 04 November 2005 at 07:46 PM.]</p></FONT>
The number of strings and the copedent also seem to matter a lot less if you're not primarily concerned with the straight-ahead country sound.
[belated disclaimer: my 3 yrs. of steeling have been on a 10-string E9!]<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 04 November 2005 at 07:46 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Howard Tate
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If I was starting on a fourteen I would definately order Bill Staffords instruction book. He uses all fourteen and knows exactly what he's doing. He plays beautiful chords and harmonies.
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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum SD12U, Carter D10 8/8, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3, DD-3, Fender Steel King, Understanding wife. http://www.Charmedmusic.com
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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum SD12U, Carter D10 8/8, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3, DD-3, Fender Steel King, Understanding wife. http://www.Charmedmusic.com
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David L. Donald
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I suspect going from a Carter Starter to a S-14 isn't that far a leap.
It may be the good time to do it for a few simple reasons.
A typical "Starter" player is new, but has woodshedded enough to know he she for sure wants to move up.
Hearing those other voicings and licks in your head is a good hint.
At the same time switching to a 12 or 14 then, l
eaves less baggage of being locked into one mindset for a long time and having to re-learn / forget stuff.
If your mind is around the idea of having a Uni or extended voicings,
then you may be ready.
In any case it will be a good sized learning curve.
But then again a bit of time and it comes easier,
whether going from E9 to a D-10 w/ C6
Or from a E9 3+4 to a S-12 7+5.
If you haven't played much C6, but want to,
this would be close to the same learning curve.
I am glad I got a S-14 sooner than later.
I can always decide to NOT play 2 strings too,
But I like having them there.
Another thing is the 14's being in less demand than U12s or ext E9 12s.
are cheaper to buy. Funny more power but lower price... go figure!
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 November 2005 at 11:37 PM.]</p></FONT>
It may be the good time to do it for a few simple reasons.
A typical "Starter" player is new, but has woodshedded enough to know he she for sure wants to move up.
Hearing those other voicings and licks in your head is a good hint.
At the same time switching to a 12 or 14 then, l
eaves less baggage of being locked into one mindset for a long time and having to re-learn / forget stuff.
If your mind is around the idea of having a Uni or extended voicings,
then you may be ready.
In any case it will be a good sized learning curve.
But then again a bit of time and it comes easier,
whether going from E9 to a D-10 w/ C6
Or from a E9 3+4 to a S-12 7+5.
If you haven't played much C6, but want to,
this would be close to the same learning curve.
I am glad I got a S-14 sooner than later.
I can always decide to NOT play 2 strings too,
But I like having them there.
Another thing is the 14's being in less demand than U12s or ext E9 12s.
are cheaper to buy. Funny more power but lower price... go figure!
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 November 2005 at 11:37 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Dave Mudgett
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I have both a very early (1975) 12-string BMI 4+5 and a late-80s 14-string Sierra 8+5. The BMI has a minimalist universal setup plus the lower string Extended E9 changes. The Sierra has a full universal setup and an Eb lock, and goes all the way down to the low E. The usual 12-string setup is on strings 2-13, and string 1 and 14 are different - it's very close to the Bill Stafford setup.
Of course, they're very different guitars, but they both have a rich clear tone, distinct from the S-10s and D-10s I've owned. Recall that the pickups on 12 and 14-string guitars are wider. For a given pickup design, wire gauge, and # wire turns, there is a higher DC resistance, which tends to lower the Q factor of the coil - this may account for some of the tone difference.
Both 12 and 14 require a heavy bar touch on the low strings to keep from buzzing, especially on the lower frets, but the 14-string requires even more force there, owing to the very large low strings.
One advantage of 14 strings is that it's possible to treat it as a 13+1, where the 13 setup includes the E9 string 9 D. The additional string can be added at the top or bottom. I've pondered dumping one of these outside strings and adding the D at the string 9 position.
I know it's comparing apples and oranges here, but the Sierra 14 is 15 pounds heavier than the BMI 12.
These days, I'm mainly using this BMI for gigs - I think for me it's a combination of the lower weight and simplicity on the gig. But the Sierra is an incredibly solid and versatile guitar. I view it as a great "laboratory" instrument. I still use my 10-string guitars, but I do miss the low Ext E9 changes and the B6 mode.
I really got going on steel on an S-10 Sierra, another pro model with a 3-raise + 2-lower changer. What I really like about the Sierra, especially for a beginner, is just how positive the mechanism is, the fact that it almost never broke strings, it stayed in tune for weeks at a crack, the knee levers swing in and out for great ergonomic feel on my 6'4-1/2" frame, and it's pretty straightforward to make changes. Not to mention the fact that used examples seem, to me, to be very inexpensive in comparison to the quality of the guitar.
Finally, I don't see why a fairly new player couldn't adjust to either the 10, 12, or 14 string approach. There are certain techniques - the heavier bar pressure, certain wide string grips - that are perhaps more challenging with more strings. But after playing for a few years on S-10, I didn't notice too large a learning curve moving to U-12 or 14. I was pretty comfortable with the embedded E9 moves very quickly, and within a few months was making steady progress on other aspects of the tuning.
Of course, they're very different guitars, but they both have a rich clear tone, distinct from the S-10s and D-10s I've owned. Recall that the pickups on 12 and 14-string guitars are wider. For a given pickup design, wire gauge, and # wire turns, there is a higher DC resistance, which tends to lower the Q factor of the coil - this may account for some of the tone difference.
Both 12 and 14 require a heavy bar touch on the low strings to keep from buzzing, especially on the lower frets, but the 14-string requires even more force there, owing to the very large low strings.
One advantage of 14 strings is that it's possible to treat it as a 13+1, where the 13 setup includes the E9 string 9 D. The additional string can be added at the top or bottom. I've pondered dumping one of these outside strings and adding the D at the string 9 position.
I know it's comparing apples and oranges here, but the Sierra 14 is 15 pounds heavier than the BMI 12.
These days, I'm mainly using this BMI for gigs - I think for me it's a combination of the lower weight and simplicity on the gig. But the Sierra is an incredibly solid and versatile guitar. I view it as a great "laboratory" instrument. I still use my 10-string guitars, but I do miss the low Ext E9 changes and the B6 mode.
I really got going on steel on an S-10 Sierra, another pro model with a 3-raise + 2-lower changer. What I really like about the Sierra, especially for a beginner, is just how positive the mechanism is, the fact that it almost never broke strings, it stayed in tune for weeks at a crack, the knee levers swing in and out for great ergonomic feel on my 6'4-1/2" frame, and it's pretty straightforward to make changes. Not to mention the fact that used examples seem, to me, to be very inexpensive in comparison to the quality of the guitar.
Finally, I don't see why a fairly new player couldn't adjust to either the 10, 12, or 14 string approach. There are certain techniques - the heavier bar pressure, certain wide string grips - that are perhaps more challenging with more strings. But after playing for a few years on S-10, I didn't notice too large a learning curve moving to U-12 or 14. I was pretty comfortable with the embedded E9 moves very quickly, and within a few months was making steady progress on other aspects of the tuning.
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Larry Hicks
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I’m glad this thread came up.
I got my first PSG in June (‘05) and have been trying pretty hard to wade into it.
It’s an Excel Superb U-14, 8 + 7 with E-lock.
You probably think I’m crazy to jump on that much guitar as a novice.
Trust me, there have been PLENTY of nights that I thought the same thing.
I’ve been a musician for over forty years and play several instruments, but this is by far the toughest thing I’ve bitten into.
I’m certainly the last one to speak authoritatively about PSG, but I do have a couple of takes on the advantages/disadvantages question that Mike brings up.
One of the questions I wrestle with: Am I doing myself a disservice by not learning a more standard format (10-string E-9)? One thing that arises is that I can’t sit down at someone else’s D-10 and get much out of it. But, the fact that so many folks set up their guitars differently tends to reduce this problem.
Another small problem: 14 strings is lot for my 55 year old eyes to focus on. That’ll probably become less important when my right hand gets a more natural feel for the grips.
That said, since I’m a babe in the woods on this thing, I don’t have any re-learning to do. The fact that your string 5 is my string 6 doesn’t bother me. I’m learning from scratch anyway. Again, what does bother me is that string 5 on a 10-string is a heck of a lot easier to find VISUALLY than string 6 is on mine. I’m getting used to that faster than I thought.
So far I’m becoming a “rhythm player” with 14 strings instead of 6.
I’m used to instruments coming to me fairly easily, but this one has been a bear so far, and that’s frustrating at times. However, being frustrated and being discouraged are two different things, and I won’t be discouraged!
Let’s just call it “Musically Challenged.”
Larry
I got my first PSG in June (‘05) and have been trying pretty hard to wade into it.
It’s an Excel Superb U-14, 8 + 7 with E-lock.
You probably think I’m crazy to jump on that much guitar as a novice.
Trust me, there have been PLENTY of nights that I thought the same thing.
I’ve been a musician for over forty years and play several instruments, but this is by far the toughest thing I’ve bitten into.
I’m certainly the last one to speak authoritatively about PSG, but I do have a couple of takes on the advantages/disadvantages question that Mike brings up.
One of the questions I wrestle with: Am I doing myself a disservice by not learning a more standard format (10-string E-9)? One thing that arises is that I can’t sit down at someone else’s D-10 and get much out of it. But, the fact that so many folks set up their guitars differently tends to reduce this problem.
Another small problem: 14 strings is lot for my 55 year old eyes to focus on. That’ll probably become less important when my right hand gets a more natural feel for the grips.
That said, since I’m a babe in the woods on this thing, I don’t have any re-learning to do. The fact that your string 5 is my string 6 doesn’t bother me. I’m learning from scratch anyway. Again, what does bother me is that string 5 on a 10-string is a heck of a lot easier to find VISUALLY than string 6 is on mine. I’m getting used to that faster than I thought.
So far I’m becoming a “rhythm player” with 14 strings instead of 6.
I’m used to instruments coming to me fairly easily, but this one has been a bear so far, and that’s frustrating at times. However, being frustrated and being discouraged are two different things, and I won’t be discouraged!
Let’s just call it “Musically Challenged.”
Larry
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ed packard
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Ahh 14 strings, how do I love thee…let me count the ways………
Set up as an E9/B6 uni, with added redundant G# on top and an E on the bottom, these possibilities exist:
1.If the middle B string is raised to get a D…the “grips” from the E9 are retained, and that string can be walked up from Bb up thru D.
2.If the middle E string is lowered to D, some of the “grips” required to skip either the D, or the octave E (to get an E9th chord) go away.
Set up as an E9/B6 uni with the standard top strings, the middle D removed, and a C# added for string 12, these possibilities exist:
1. As in 1 & 2 above.
2. Tune the upper D# to Tune C# and have an E69 basic tuning
3. Change the order of the top strings to E,F#,G#,C#...sound like the old E13th in disguise?
4. Now b the E to get Eb,F#,G#,C# for the B6…this would be E,G,A,D in C6 except that the A string is now added to the mix.
5. Add a change (pedal?) to cause an EM13 starting with string 11 = E,G#,B,D#,F#,A,C# etc. =1,3,5,7,9,11,13. If the middle E is lowered to get the D, then we have E13. If a change is added to lower the G# to G, we now have Em13. I will let you figure the chords that are available using adjacent strings. This is just the beginning of a whole new system, without giving up the standard E9 and C6 moves/sounds.
6. Now stretch the neck to 30” (added frets, same gauges and tensions) tune to C9, and have more instrument to play.
7. There is more but…..
Re string top planarity…get gauged rollers if you find it annoying….with the 30” neck, it becomes less of an issue.
Re string gauges for the low E…80 gauge was used but gets dead in a hurry…not enough tension. 95 gauge is available in GHS boomers…the better gauge is 120 and harder to find.
14 strings allow leaving two strings off and having a 12 string. Adding two strings to a 12 to get 14 is a much bigger problem. Hey, if the tall Texan could leave off a whole neck to uses as his private bar, two strings left off does not sound so radical.
14 strings are less to keep up than 2 X 10, or 2 X 12.
Re bar size…when was the last time that you flat barred all 10 strings at the 12th fret (or thereabouts)…same goes for 14 strings = standard bars.
Longer pickups are not an issue providing one knows what they are designing to achieve. There is a lot of fuss re desired standard 6 string, PSG 10 string E9, and C6 pickup characteristics, why should 12 and 14 string instruments be different? There is a lot of Q loss from placing the 500K volume pot directly across the pickup(s).
Re starting with a 14 string… I agree with less old habits to break. Using the Stafford setup, the existing E9/C6 teaching materials can be used…just change the string numbers on your tab.
But, if you want to have an extra helping of new sonic combinations to choose from, consider one of the uncommon 14 string possibilities (ala Julian Tharpe or ????).
Set up as an E9/B6 uni, with added redundant G# on top and an E on the bottom, these possibilities exist:
1.If the middle B string is raised to get a D…the “grips” from the E9 are retained, and that string can be walked up from Bb up thru D.
2.If the middle E string is lowered to D, some of the “grips” required to skip either the D, or the octave E (to get an E9th chord) go away.
Set up as an E9/B6 uni with the standard top strings, the middle D removed, and a C# added for string 12, these possibilities exist:
1. As in 1 & 2 above.
2. Tune the upper D# to Tune C# and have an E69 basic tuning
3. Change the order of the top strings to E,F#,G#,C#...sound like the old E13th in disguise?
4. Now b the E to get Eb,F#,G#,C# for the B6…this would be E,G,A,D in C6 except that the A string is now added to the mix.
5. Add a change (pedal?) to cause an EM13 starting with string 11 = E,G#,B,D#,F#,A,C# etc. =1,3,5,7,9,11,13. If the middle E is lowered to get the D, then we have E13. If a change is added to lower the G# to G, we now have Em13. I will let you figure the chords that are available using adjacent strings. This is just the beginning of a whole new system, without giving up the standard E9 and C6 moves/sounds.
6. Now stretch the neck to 30” (added frets, same gauges and tensions) tune to C9, and have more instrument to play.
7. There is more but…..
Re string top planarity…get gauged rollers if you find it annoying….with the 30” neck, it becomes less of an issue.
Re string gauges for the low E…80 gauge was used but gets dead in a hurry…not enough tension. 95 gauge is available in GHS boomers…the better gauge is 120 and harder to find.
14 strings allow leaving two strings off and having a 12 string. Adding two strings to a 12 to get 14 is a much bigger problem. Hey, if the tall Texan could leave off a whole neck to uses as his private bar, two strings left off does not sound so radical.
14 strings are less to keep up than 2 X 10, or 2 X 12.
Re bar size…when was the last time that you flat barred all 10 strings at the 12th fret (or thereabouts)…same goes for 14 strings = standard bars.
Longer pickups are not an issue providing one knows what they are designing to achieve. There is a lot of fuss re desired standard 6 string, PSG 10 string E9, and C6 pickup characteristics, why should 12 and 14 string instruments be different? There is a lot of Q loss from placing the 500K volume pot directly across the pickup(s).
Re starting with a 14 string… I agree with less old habits to break. Using the Stafford setup, the existing E9/C6 teaching materials can be used…just change the string numbers on your tab.
But, if you want to have an extra helping of new sonic combinations to choose from, consider one of the uncommon 14 string possibilities (ala Julian Tharpe or ????).
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Charlie McDonald
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David L. Donald
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On trick for finding strings is to find a standard head position that
lines you up aproximately
with the fret markers on the fret board.
I can find the 2 main E's relatively quickly now like this.
One is close to the bottom, and the other at the top of the rather wide 5 and 7 fret markers.
Another trick.... look at the instrument in small sections,
get happy with a section, then try the one above and below that.
Eventually you will slide between sections ok.
lines you up aproximately
with the fret markers on the fret board.
I can find the 2 main E's relatively quickly now like this.
One is close to the bottom, and the other at the top of the rather wide 5 and 7 fret markers.
Another trick.... look at the instrument in small sections,
get happy with a section, then try the one above and below that.
Eventually you will slide between sections ok.
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Anders Brundell
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I have a 14 string E9/B6 (copedent at http://groups.msn.com/countryfolketidalarna/dcmcsfotoalbum.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=141 ) wich is actually a 13 stringer since the 14:th string is too short to sound good. It has both a complete E9 (including string 9, D,) and a complete C6 there all the time as you can see, and I can sure recommend this one.