Tenth string

dana Murphy · Post by **dana Murphy** » 26 Jul 2018 7:13 am

wanting to know if enyone would have info or pix on how buddy was able to engage the tenth in & out on the zumsteel thanks dana

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 Jul 2018 8:36 am

If I understand your question, you want to know he uses the 10th string. He picks it with his thumb. And it doesn't matter which guitar. If you're asking something else, it's not clear.

Clyde Lane · Post by **Clyde Lane** » 26 Jul 2018 8:52 am

Not sure, but I think he just backed of the nylon tuning nut.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 26 Jul 2018 9:12 am

I'm confused.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 26 Jul 2018 9:24 am

Buddy said he liked to leave the 10th string unchanged on the A pedal, only raising the 5th string, so he could get an A chord with B "bass" note when pressing A & B pedals. I would assume Clyde's idea of what he did is correct (though I don't claim to know).

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 26 Jul 2018 9:36 am

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 26 Jul 2018 9:48 am

You beat me to it, Fred. With that setup, he didn't need to change anything on the A pedal. A lot of good ideas in that copedent (not surprisingly).

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 26 Jul 2018 10:43 am

There was an article that I seen somewhere here on the internet a few weeks ago, It may have been a link we could go to here on the forum. They was talking about Mr. Emmons guitar. He had a lever or knob up near the key head where he could disconnect or connect a pull on 1 string when he wanted to.
I don't trust my memory but I think it was on the 10th string. I have also wondered if there some more disconnects they did not talk about.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 26 Jul 2018 10:52 am

Yeah Bobby, I remember that thread. That knob he had may have been for an S10 guitar, whereas the copedent pictured in my post is probably from a D10 setup.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 Jul 2018 11:07 am

Ahh... Now I understand.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 26 Jul 2018 11:39 am

I didnâ€™t understand the question at first either. And until we hear from Dana, maybe we still donâ€™t get it.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 26 Jul 2018 3:42 pm

I've always wanted to be able to get a '4' chord (pedals down) but with a 5th (B) on the 10th string.

I decided to go with the 'Isaacs' pedal (raises the 5th and 6th strings to C# and A respectively) as my fourth E9 pedal.

My Zum Encore is only three pedals so the 'Isaacs' is on LKV.

dana Murphy · Post by **dana Murphy** » 27 Jul 2018 8:15 pm

I seen a post where buddy got new zumsteel & with a 1/2 turn he could ingage or desingage the 10 string I would like see how zumtag did it hoping someone would a pix of it. I think the guitar was sold to someone in Wva but not sure sorry I was not clear in my posting I like reading the steel forum .I just don't post much thanks dana

John Goux · Post by **John Goux** » 27 Jul 2018 10:06 pm

I believe what Buddy was up to, was getting the Sus49 chords that were so prevalent in the 70â€™s and 80â€™s, but were not in common use during the 1950â€™s when the pedal steel coped was developed, as a pedals down chord.

You will recognize these as E/F#, A/B, D/E etc.

Paul Franklin did the same thing with the â€œFranklin pedalâ€, which by lowering Str 6 and 5 a whole step gives you E F# A E on strings 8/6/5/4. Itâ€™s nearly D/E.

These sus49 chords are on the E9 coped but not as easily available..
The easierst is open strings 76543, an E/F#. It is voiced pretty high. Bully for those 12 strings players who can raise low E to F#.

If you raise D string a half step in combo with A/F you can have C#/D# on 9 7654.

Most of us canâ€™t have a A/B in pedals down because the B to C# works on string 10 as well as string 5.
Buddy had Bruce build a guitar that could have the 10th string either raised by the A pedal, or not, leaving an A triad with B in the bass.

What Dana is asking, is how did Bruce accomplish this lever? To either engage string 10 with the A pedal, or with the flip of a switch, not raise string 10.

I believe Danaâ€™s question is a mechanical one.

John

Rich Sullivan · Post by **Rich Sullivan** » 28 Jul 2018 6:19 am

Roger or John,

Can you enlighten me as to the applications of the IV/V chord? When would you use that chord?

Thx

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Jul 2018 6:56 am

Rich

As pop music became more sophisticated through the '60s and beyond there were more and more examples of 4/5 chords. We can think of it as an 11th chord,too.

"(By the) time I get to Phoenix...."

If I'm playing the tune in E major I could use the A/B (or B11th) on the word 'time' then resolve to Ema7 (fret 2, strings 9,7,6,5 with B and C pedals).

This is one simple application on a song most of us know but there are thousands more.

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 30 Jul 2018 7:41 pm

Roger, On the word "time" my ears tell me the bass stays on a 1. According to what you're saying, the bass would go to a 5. Yes/no?

You beat me to the punch on calling them 11 chords. Love your posts. Interesting copedant. RP

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 30 Jul 2018 8:47 pm

Buddy plays an 11th (4 chord/ 5 on bass) right at the end of Shenandoah before resolving to the 1.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9GllXOgF4DY
And you MUST do the look.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 31 Jul 2018 12:43 am

In dealing with geniuses, they can be very annoying about just, like, flaking off and doing whatever they want. It kinda seems like by the time you can write down and apply something he "did" he was already doing something else.

"Harrumph... The NERVE of that man!"

I think he may be settling down a bit and behaving a little more obediently these days, but still:

"Harrumph... The NERVE of that man!" <-<- (copy cut 'n' paste as needed, as often as it takes)

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Jul 2018 5:03 am

Ron

Not necessarily. On the original record the bass does play a 'one'but I feel that was a musical choice that reinforces the '11th' sound (Carol Kaye, perhaps?) The chord is a 5/11.

Now, I know that I could use my B & C pedal and play strings 10, 6 & 5 only to get the same harmonic effect but I like the tonic note on string 4.

Maybe 'Phoenix' isn't the perfect choice but I felt it was a song that everybody would know.

Fred's quite right regarding 'Shenandoah' - maybe a better choice?

Good post, David - funny how Buddy never asked anyone first if he should try these things. I'm tickled when I think of him working it all out in his head while he was grocery shopping.

The nerve of the man!!!!!

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 31 Jul 2018 6:19 am

Listen to Bobbe's intro. I believe this is a 4 chord being played over a 5 in the bass.

C6 tuning, of course.

Click Here

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Jul 2018 6:21 am

Yes, Lee - exactly.He also is playing the tonic note at the top of the chord.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 31 Jul 2018 6:34 am

You should also note that Bobbe still has all his fingers on his left hand...before the power saw incident!

A more subtle use of the 4/5 chord can be found at the end of the intro of Alabama's song, Old Flame.
It's the last chord, just before the first vocal line.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Jul 2018 6:41 am

I don't know that song, Lee, but the 11th is a powerful musical tool that can set a mood all of its own.

I've found it useful in my version of the 'Hill Street Blues' theme.

Guitarists, of course, just have to stop one fret from the 5th to the 2nd string with the bass note being the root. Piece of cake!

Glen Campbell's 'True Grit' - at the end of the bridge:

'The pain of it - will ease a bit - when you find a man with true GRIT (11th).

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Aug 2018 11:57 am

In later years, Emmons was thinking of tossing his C pedal and putting the A pedal on P3. He said it was to get the contemporary IV/V chord and
he could do something else with P3. There were some laughs about his going Day.
Yes, that was the definitive IV/V in D on Shenandoah, and the look was if he at last found the lost chord. I think it is a significant change.
I also think the man from Jupiter was showing us how to do it. This is a notable chord. I don't think you can do it using a B->C# raise.

I think the change in 'By The Time..' can be played with just the B pedal. The minimal change gets that spare steel sound.

You don't want F#, it's on the melody. You don't need the D# note yet, it's not yet in the melody, which is so far E and F#.
A over B is simply the best expression as it's the simplist. It shows the meat of the modern change. You hear a lot of it in Debussy.
It's slightly different from I/V, like you'd hear in Joni Mitchell.

So where does it come from, the implicit root of E in a B chord? Carol Kaye didn't do it. It's just there, and it's the importance of the ninth and eleventh,
on their way to being bigger chords that will confound further confound notation with all the majors and minors.

Yes, I'm sure there are piano players out there, in bars in the sky that insist on playing it as an F#m7.
There may be pedal steel players that are doing it the same way; it's a time-honored tradition in America as well as England.

The E note in By The Time.. never really leaves. You hear a lot of it in the Beach Boys. In some form the notes in the treble clef stay the same and the bass moves, in its most basic form. And sometimes, vice versa.
Ditch the five of two jive, get with the one of five, because if it's there you'll here the root, I mean hear, like it's chickoree, I garontee.
If the V is there you'll hear the one in it somewhere.

You should hear this change and obey. Follow it.

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