understanding your steel

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 24 Aug 2005 9:11 am

Great stuff. well,Number ONE,biggy these days is the price of shipping,and the chance of getting it torn up!!also the expense and time!!

seems to me,we all need two steels,because sometimes need time on the bench with one.
making repairs,ordering parts.ect. I like to go to the mill,lathe ect.and build a part i need,want, don't like to be rushed,so i need a player to use while the other is down.

I know this is very debateable,cost either way,but,if you watch real close sooner or later can pick up a good used one.

It cost anyway you go about it.shipping,labor,parts,and waiting. vrs.buying a good used one.

sure lots may not agree with me on this,but i;m just a poor fellow,and living on limited income cuts the spending.

anyway,i want to put new parts in a couple of sho-buds,and the new parts are available from JOHN COOP, so thats the way i plan to go. farris

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 24 Aug 2005 9:25 am

This brings a real thought to mind.I have a pro 1 tore down now,if i order all new parts how will i know where to install it.
it only had one knee and i want to put 5 knees on it. don't want to put holes all in it!!!need to install right the first time.
Scarey to me!! farris

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 24 Aug 2005 9:39 am

Farris,
Ask Coop. If he says it's so . . . it's so.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 24 Aug 2005 9:48 am

Everyone has a different set of "mental wiring", some can easily visualize mechanical function, others just see a bunch of rods... there are other variables as well.

If you just play at home or for your own amusement, there doesn't seem to be much need of really knowing your guitar mechanically unless you want to experiment with different changes.

However, a pro or frequent gigging player, is in deep trouble if something goes out of adjustment and he doesn't have the requisite skill to diagnose and repair. I've never understood the pros I've run into who couldn't work on their own guitars.

Of course that may be that "different wiring"... it's the same with knowing your guitar the other way- just look at the differences in the reponses to Denny Turner's theory threads!

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 24 Aug 2005 9:49 am

LARRY,please know,i wasn't doubting JOHN COOP for a min. its me,trying to install that stuff!!!you know,if i get a pedal in the wrong place,have to move it,there is holes,YOU bet, i believe in JOHN COOP and his parts all the way.he has sent me some parts,and they are TOP SHELF.that just leaves me to mess it up huh. hahaha farris

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 24 Aug 2005 10:05 am

That's not what i'm saying, Farris
Ask John WHERE TO PUT YOUR KNEE LEVERS. He's setting my guitar up right now. I'm sure he'd be able to give you the exact measurements for a standard Sho-Bud 5 lever setup.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Doyle Mitchell · Post by **Doyle Mitchell** » 24 Aug 2005 10:13 am

Farris, I have found that I can tear my Rains into a hundred pieces, no problem, I can just put it all in a box and go right up the road to Bob Rains and say, put this back together for me, I am going possum hunting, no problem, I assure you that I am a better possum hunter than I am a steel guitar mechanic. I have found that if I want it to work right, let the right people do the work. I am like the other guy, I should spend my time on the top side practicing and any spare time hunting!!! But I do admire those of you that have the patience and skill to do the fine tuning.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 24 Aug 2005 10:43 am

Hello DOYLE my friend!!man send me a email,i miss you on the mail list and lost your address since computer crash awhile back. Now,you are so lucky man,i ain't close to nothing, and a poor guy tooooooo.
yep,it is a joy to make a steel feel right,and seems like so hard to get just right. I've got the black one here just bought,best feel i've ever owned. It belonged to Tommy White and he sold it to Johnny Cox, i don't know who did the setup on that steel,but WOW.best feel i've ever had. I've owned 2new sho-buds,one Zum and a new Emmons. tells me one thing,when buying a new steel,it still needs setting up for the owner. had bunch of used one tooooooo.
Mabe its because of the BLACK huh hahahha
farris

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 24 Aug 2005 12:50 pm

If I could afford all the CNC stuff, I would be building pedal steels. I came pretty close to building a CNC machine last summer. But I didn't think I could build it accurate enough to meet my standards.

I also don't like to get my hands dirty. Ever messed with aluminum in a machine? Crap goes everywhere.

------------------
Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 24 Aug 2005 1:11 pm

Farris, I always bring along a Lap steel or at the very least a dobro when I gig so if something goes wrong with my steel and I cant fix it on the spot, I can at least make it through the night. I cant be the only one who does this, can I?

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 24 Aug 2005 1:47 pm

Gary,man after my own heart!!!I ran Brown and Sharp automatics for almost 10yrs. you bet alum.is a mess,and that old milk coolant.also cut the crap out of you trying to get away from it toooooo. It machines such high speeds,the chips are unreal.

I came along before the CNCS then had a country mach. shop for 30yrs. and being a poor boy,never could afford that stuff.all manual machines.

I just got a Plasma machine about 8yrs ago.
man i dreamed of the Plasma cam,run off computer. but heart surgery stopped that.

Larry you are very wise man,they would run me off with a lap steel hahaha. I played pedals to long. and i did learn on 6string laps and multichords many moons ago. farris

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 24 Aug 2005 8:53 pm

The limit to my mechanical abilities pretty much ends with pumping my own gas, and changing a light bulb. This might sound like a joke, but I'm 98% serious. I've never changed a flat tire, as I've been an AAA member since getting my license almost 40 years ago. I know how to use the telephone directory quite well to look up the numbers of qualified "mechanical" people.
And no I don't feel as though I've missed out on anything by not becoming comfortable and confident in that aspect of worldly experiences. It's simply choices I have made. I have nothing but respect and admiration for people who are skilled in those areas, and I'm not one of them.

No, I don't understand the mechanics of the pedal steel, and I hope I don't ever have to. Fortunately, I live close by to my friend Tom Bradshaw, and he takes care of any problems my guitar might have. I have two almost identical Carters, same changes, etc. They almost never have problems, but if one of them does, I simply use the other one if there's any waiting time for the repairs to be made. There is no sacrifice in sound and they're both just as easy for me to play. If I didn't have the luxury of someone like Tom near by, I would pay to send it back to Carter or wherever I have to for the needed repairs. I love to play the pedal steel, and I choose to spend as little time as possible on the mechanics of it. Sometimes when doing an "important" gig or recording session, I'll actually bring my second guitar along, just in case it was needed. I've never had to use it yet though.

-- Marc

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Aug 2005 4:38 am

Marc,
You are indeed a lucky man. Tom is a great guy and a true inventor for the pedal steel.

I was once in a similar situation, both your mechanical ineptitude

and proximity to an excellent steel guitar technician, my dear friend Clifford Kirk. When Clifford passed away, I felt the need to remember all those little tricks that Cliff would use when working on my guitar. He taught me how all pull changers work. That was a major accomplishment.

I've sent my Emmons to Mike Cass and John Coop is currently rebuilding my Sho-Bud, but I try to do as much as I can to avoid embarrassment in a gig situation when something goes awry. Understanding how strings pull, pedals and levers are adjusted, and a pickup is wired can come in really handy.

I hope Tom lives forever, but offer this little anecdote FWIW.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 25 Aug 2005 8:28 am

I was thinking about this topic,you know i hate mechancing,I hate to even raise the hood on my 93 ford F150. but at times we have to.And when i hear or feel something that ain't right driving along,man i get up set.Then the question comes,what you gonna do about it?? awhile back i went to the groc store,all was fine,came out got in the pickup and nothing!!!well,i carry heavyduty jumpers with me so got help,and still nothing. Starter just burned up at once.
have a race car friend,came with a trailer,hauled me home,and next day new starter. Moral of the story,things happen.
playing steel on stage,and pcs.slip,fall out. ect. what you gonna do?? farris

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 25 Aug 2005 8:37 am

Cliff was a real gem, wasn't he, Larry? I spent many happy hours watching him tinker. Once I had my old Marlen over there for some little tweeze and he said, "you should know how to do this" and ten minutes later I did. What a sweetheart.

There are more than a few little tricks on most brands that I'm not sure most people could figure out without having seen it done. I'm thinking of things like using a second rod for a split tuning, or the reversing linkage on pedal two that Carter uses. I never would have thought of that one. A first timer working on an older ZB might really want some guidance!

On the other hand, I've worked on a lot of steels that somebody really butchered...
When you take a step back and think about it, it really is a wierd instrument.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Aug 2005 9:16 am

I am of the thinking that I should spend most of my time on TOP of the Steel.

I am smart enough to know the legs point down...

I have no earthly reason to take my Steel apart.it is a late 90's Carter D10 9+8 and the only reason I would even contemplate going underneath for anything major would be if there was a problem.

Could I ?..yes..
Should I ? No

The way I see it is that if I need to perform a repair I have 20 strings, a few zillion mecanical connections and 20 fingers with all the springs and stuff to look at and study before I perform major surgeory.

When my Sho-Bud Pro III required a finger change/swap..I just turned it over, studied it , made a plan and just did it..

Understanding how it works is clearly a good thing..but being an expert at building repairing is a different issue.

Should you go thru the Steel every 6 months or so and insure things are clean,tight and secure ? Yes of course.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 25 Aug 2005 11:54 am

On the drawing board today,Mechanics have engine stands!! and i am tired of trying to work on steels on a table!! So,i've got several ideas in mind at this time. ONE,with guitar all set up,pick guitar up about 6" walk forward and slide steel in a table rack.needs to go around enplates and lock. pull a pin and rotate over and over.
leave all open to where work on top or bottom. even strum or pick it,and adjust it.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 25 Aug 2005 11:56 am

On the drawing board today,Mechanics have engine stands!! and i am tired of trying to work on steels on a table!! So,i've got several ideas in mind at this time. ONE,with guitar all set up,pick guitar up about 6" walk forward and slide steel in a table rack.needs to go around enplates and lock. pull a pin and rotate over and over.
leave all open to where work on top or bottom. even strum or pick it,and adjust it.
ends must be open so as to pull rods,and change settings ect. also changing tuner keys, simple ect.can use with legs on or off. Dang i have gave away a million dollar idea. farris

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 25 Aug 2005 1:50 pm

I got my first "new" steel in 1970, up to that time I had been using a very old 8/2 Shobud D10, which I never worked on.

Got my new MSA and in two days had completly changed the copendant.... and continued to experiment with it for the next couple years. This was pretty much what every steel player I knew was doing... as "standards" happily were still be developed... even for tablature. This was great, and allowed a lot of experimenting... but that time is kinda gone, and I'm not sure how many younger steel players will rip into the bottom side of their steels. Also, newer, more compact, lighter, and more complex setups have made the task a little more challenging for the beginning steeler.

But I have often even hand made the parts I lacked, and even built a Left "Forward" knee Lever... I would encourage folks to do some of this, but start small in attempting changes. It is an amazing instrument, is it not?

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 25 Aug 2005 2:10 pm

Great DAVID,thank you for shareing that. Yep thats one mistake many people make!deciding to build a steel to start with. we need to learn on a steel,messing around like you said,build a extra knee pedal is great way to learn.study it out,buy a pedal kit or build the pcs. don't have to have a lots of tools. Hacksaw,pliers,drill,screwdrivers ect. Old steels are so much fun to experiment with.
I like the idea of buy a clunker,and have a ball!!!yep,thats just me!!need some alum.stock flats and angle.Enjoy as you go.
we use to pull the motor out of a auto,not having a clue what we were doing.all in learning. farris

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 26 Aug 2005 11:16 am

Today i be shacking like a leaf!!!I tore my black professional down.IT played so sweet,but the keys origionals grovers were coming apart. so i said,gotta do it!!i'm replacing them with the grover 18:1s. oh how sweet they are!! after i took the strings off the key heads were just flopping. BE sure,if you have the old type keys to take the strings off and shake them, if they are loose and seperating like mine,NOT gonna stay in tune proper. only way to change them proper is to take the key heads off,also clean at that time and assemble afterwards.well, i want to change some pulls while i'm at it so here goes.may have to send it to RICKY, to reset it HA HA, hope not.!!!!!!!!!! farris

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 26 Aug 2005 2:47 pm

Well,one more post,be prepared for the hangups you will run into!!changing grover keys 18:1 second time i've done it,and the keys will not tighen down enough when you screw the inside collar in. also the screws are wood screws and toooo small to fit on the sho-bud key heads. I used the old screws or could get new one the size of the origionals. also,i used the old washers with the new ones to make it thicker. grinding the collars ect.doesn't do much good, they are not threaded all the way like the old ones. and the old collars are differet size. Thats what i love,got to overcome the problems.

also mark your key heads,back and front,usually doesn't matter,but mine don't line up the same. Mounting holes are enlarged on the back. also if you have gaged rollers could make a difference.

Well, i'm taking one pc at a time out of old sho-bud,welding looks like a DIRT DOBBER did it. i'm grinding out and rewelding each pc.

now, last but not least. THE JOHN COOP PARTS are not that way,they are PERFECT.
Welding is top notch, and machinist is Number one also. I look at my old Professional and want those parts from John so bad, gotta save some money and quit buying guitars. start working on what i got huh.hahahhahhaahhahahha farris

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 26 Aug 2005 3:54 pm

My Fender, yep. I don't care what "modernist" steelers think, the '63 and later ones are superbly designed and so easy to work on it should be illegal.

My MSA? Yikes. It scares me.

Mike Hoover · Post by **Mike Hoover** » 26 Aug 2005 4:23 pm

I own 2 Fords, thought this qualified you.
I wish there was some information on the web that would help you set up one. Carter site (i think) has some good illistrations of how the mechanics work.

Mike

Carlos Polidura · Post by **Carlos Polidura** » 26 Aug 2005 7:32 pm

HI FARRIS,
I THINK EVERY STEEL PLAYER SHOULD KNOW THEIR STEEL GUITAR (S)... "HOW THEY WORK" AND "WHAT MAKES IT WORK". I DO WORK ON MY OWN GUITARS AND MAKE ANY NECESSARY CHANGES, ADJUSTMENTS EVEN REPAIRS IF NEEDED.
IN MY OPINION, IF I CAN PLAY IT WHY NOT LEARN TO FIX IT?
THANKS
CARLOS