Why are there not bone or synthetic roller nuts?

Dave Stroud · Post by **Dave Stroud** » 18 Jun 2018 7:20 pm

I couldn't find anything on this with a forum search... I'm sure I'm not the first person to think about it. What limitations would there be to creating bone roller nuts?

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 18 Jun 2018 8:32 pm

It might be possible, but there would be a difference in tone between the open strings and barred strings. I think PSG has a higher string tension than fretted instruments, so nonmetal rollers would probably break from the pressure.

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 19 Jun 2018 2:31 am

Another thing is: would bone rollers turn as smooth as metal ones? If not, you'll get a lot of hysteresis. (did I write that correctly???)

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 Jun 2018 4:58 am

Offhand, I'd say softer (synthetic or natural) materials aren't used because there'd be a loss in sustain, and they'd be more subject to deformation, chipping, or breaking. (There's a lot more string movement and tension in a pedal guitar than a straight guitar.)

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 19 Jun 2018 5:11 am

Our lead guitar player has a Fender Strat "Plus" model. It has needle bearing(s) roller nut (and locking Schaller tuners). I would assume for the same reason as a pedal steel, to minimize friction when the vibrato tail piece is used.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 19 Jun 2018 6:40 am

FWIW, I know Jim Palanscar makes Gaged Rollers at his Shop.
Maybe send him a piece of bone.
If you wanted to try it, I bet you could go to a Bead store today and find a pre-drilled Bead that would fit in the slot.

Matthew Walton · Post by **Matthew Walton** » 21 Jun 2018 11:57 am

Rich Peterson wrote:It might be possible, but there would be a difference in tone between the open strings and barred strings.

This is an interesting thought. Since I use a Tribotone bar, would the corollary be that I'd have a more consistent tone using a similar plastic for the rollers?

(Not to downplay all the other issues mentioned here; I think the cons would greatly outweigh the pros.)

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 21 Jun 2018 12:55 pm

You raise an interesting subject Dave. Although I've found in the past that there's almost nothing one can think of that hasn't already been tried by some builder, still I wonder...

If bone works good for electric guitars, I can't see why not so for steel. Or perhaps Corian, etc.

I can't imagine it would be any more expensive to machine these materials than aluminum or brass and I'd suspect that they would be as durable as aluminum at least.

One of our guys here that has machine tools ought to make up a set and let someone evaluate them.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 22 Jun 2018 1:38 am

Jack Stoner wrote:Our lead guitar player has a Fender Strat "Plus" model. It has needle bearing(s) roller nut (and locking Schaller tuners). I would assume for the same reason as a pedal steel, to minimize friction when the vibrato tail piece is used.

I tried a roller nut like that on a guitar that I built in the late 90s. Not a good idea. It will buzz and rattle, and result in less energy transferred to the neck ( = less sustain), no matter how tight the tolerances are. A graphite nut will do a much better job.

But on the pedal steel, we need the roller nut despite its imperfections. Graphite probably wouldn't last very long. Maybe a solid, fixed nut made from bearing bronze could do the trick and add some sustain?

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 24 Jun 2018 6:32 pm

Metal either Brass, Hard Aluminum or Stainless steel makes good rollers, Now to reinvent the wheel.
If I was building a nut roller from Bone, I would put a Bronze bearing in it for smooth turning. As for bone, I would only pick bone from the deer family, Moose, Elk, or Whitetail Deer. I gave my cousin 2 pieces of Moose Bone he made the bridge for a Do-Bro. He said it was the best the guitar ever sounded, Some how he broke it and came back looking for more Moose Bone.
Growing up on a farm, 18 years as a Field Wildlife Officer and long time hunter. I have cut many different species of bone domestic and wild. Deer family bone is the hardest bone I have found.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 27 Jun 2018 9:13 am

How about zirconium?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 27 Jun 2018 9:28 am

Titanium rollers?

Robert Leaman · Post by **Robert Leaman** » 27 Jun 2018 3:41 pm

Putting needle or ball bearings on roller nuts is like putting a telescopic sight on a pea shooter. Neither of these supposed anti-friction bearings will make sufficient axial movement to justify cost and/or perform better than a soft metal against a hard metal. For example brass sleeve inserts against a high carbon steel shaft. There are those who will dispute this but none can show or prove performance improvement.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Jun 2018 5:48 pm

b0b wrote:How about zirconium?

That would make sense to me if it's reasonable to get it into that shape. From talking to Ed Packard about the general process of working with the material, not sure how easy that would be. But the hardness should be there. I really like how my Zirc bars feel and sound, but I think my BJS bars have a bit more brilliance, while the Zirc feels a bit smoother.

I can't imagine using stuff like bone, corian, or anything like that for a roller nut. I think it would be too soft. Fine, and even preferred, for fixed guitar nuts where the tension is typically quite a bit lower and the string bending is not so constant. But even there, bone nuts on a guitar do wear down if played a lot.

Putting needle or ball bearings on roller nuts is like putting a telescopic sight on a pea shooter. Neither of these supposed anti-friction bearings will make sufficient axial movement to justify cost and/or perform better than a soft metal against a hard metal. For example brass sleeve inserts against a high carbon steel shaft.

I have to lubricate my roller nuts periodically or they start to hang up and cause noticable tuning issues. Permanently lubricated bearings of some sort might obviate that need. Never tried anything like that on a steel, but it might make sense in some situations. Not sure what the effect on tone might be either. I can say for sure that the Strat Plus-style nuts really do cut friction significantly - I've owned a few guitars like that. I've never cared for the effect on a Strat's sound, but it might be just the ticket for pedal steel.