Finish on vintage guitar

Pam Patterson · Post by **Pam Patterson** » 4 May 2018 11:18 am

Has anyone had the finish on a vintage guitar "orange peel" without having put a glaze on the finish? For instance, can an original finish ever change?

Joe Breeden · Post by **Joe Breeden** » 4 May 2018 6:01 pm

Excessive heat and or moisture can affect a finish for sure.

James Kerr · Post by **James Kerr** » 5 May 2018 11:45 am

Pam, many would say never interfere with, or try to repair a "Vintage Instrument" unless you intend to reduce its value to Zero. They should be allowed to live their life.

Have a look at "Trigger" the Guitar owned by Willie Nelson and tell me if your damage is worse than this.

Have a listen to it playing too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDCFjYVKAkY

G Strout · Post by **G Strout** » 6 May 2018 2:56 pm

Are you sure that it is "orange peel?" Has the guitar possibly been refinished?
Too much air pressure or holding the gun too close to the surface causes one kind of orange peel because the air actually blows the finish into a pebbly texture. Wrong thinner, Dirty air cap or fluid tip.Too high a viscosity or too small a fluid tip on a siphon gun can cause not enough material to flow, resulting in a starved finish which will look pebbly
Orange peel is one of the most common spraying problems.
Original finishes do change over time (Checking Cracking, Fading etc but I have never heard of one "being orange peeled" over time.
Can you post pics?
Gary

Pam Patterson · Post by **Pam Patterson** » 7 May 2018 9:23 am

I have had a gentleman look at the guitar and marvel over what great condition it is in... yes, he knows guitars. Then I had another look at photos and he is trying to tell me there had been a glaze put on it. My Dad bought this out of high school in 1949-50 and he never put anything on it. The one gentleman also tried to tell me it was a 1953 because of the serial number, which from what I am understanding with these early Fenders, that is not a reliable way to age them. You guys take a look and let me know what you think because I think you all know more than the last gentleman I spoke with told me.

Pam Patterson · Post by **Pam Patterson** » 7 May 2018 9:25 am

Here are some pics.

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Pam Patterson · Post by **Pam Patterson** » 7 May 2018 9:27 am

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 7 May 2018 10:00 am

"Orange peel" is not a phenomenon that would ever come into play on a pearloid finish unless for some unknown reason it had been oversprayed with lacquer at some point, which given the provenance of your instrument would seem extremely doubtful.

The Fender Champion, many Magnatones, Valcos, and other lower-end lap steels of the day commonly were covered in pearloid instead of the more time and labor intensive traditional lacquer finish.

Per Wikipedia: Pearloid is produced by swirling together chunks of celluloid in a solvent, then curing. It is sliced and bonded to other materials such as wood, to give the mother of pearl effect.

In more recent times, some clever wag once dubbed pearloid "mother of toilet seat," and the moniker has caught on.

Bill Groner · Post by **Bill Groner** » 7 May 2018 10:47 am

If sprayed with lacquer, would that eat into the MOTS and haze it up?
Maybe that is in fact what happened?

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 7 May 2018 12:13 pm

I don't see the problem: I'm about as old as that Champion and wish I looked half as good.

If you look in the pickup cavity (and/or under the headplate), there might be a date (M)M/YY penciled there. Fender used those volume and tone knobs on other steels and on Telecasters and Esquires. Andre Duchossoir's book on the Telecaster shows how these changed subtly over the years. These look like what Duchossoir calls 1953.

Joe Breeden · Post by **Joe Breeden** » 7 May 2018 1:46 pm

Looking at your pictures, the pearloid finish looks as good or better than any I have ever seen.

Bill Groner · Post by **Bill Groner** » 7 May 2018 2:06 pm

Joe I was thinking the same thing. Maybe when the guy said there was a glaze put on it, he meant a polish for plastic. Something like Novus 2 a scratch remover? I would consider that a glaze. That is one of the best looking MOTS's I have seen, at least from the pictures it looks great.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 7 May 2018 8:02 pm

Mots is plastic.

Lacquer will attack it as will most volatile solvents. Naphtha and mineral spirits are safe - anything else will likely melt into it. Some polishes will attack older plastics. The issue is plasticizers that allow plastic to expand and shrink slightly. It can leach out over time - plastic can become brittle, change shape, and/or absorb plasticizers and wetting agents from cleaners/polishers, which can affect the texture.

"Orange peel", though, is a lumpy finish created by poor spray technique or application during unsuitable weather conditions.

That being said I see nothing wrong with the MOTS in the pictures at all. Can yo post macro shots that show the problem from an extremely close distance?

G Strout · Post by **G Strout** » 7 May 2018 8:20 pm

Hard to tell with the pics ...but frankly it looks to be in good condition. Pearloid finish will not orange peel and it doesn't look like it has had a bad spray job (clear coat) done at a later time.
The pics look good to me!
Are you going to be learning to play it? Or, is it for sale? It looks to be in good condition and you may want to consider keeping it as a remembrance of your Dad.
BTW.... since your Dad was the original owner it likely has the original pickup. These are highly sought after by Telecaster players..... it was basically the same pickup as the Tele black guard. Many were ripped out of the lap steel, attached to base plate and it mounted in Telecasters. They have a great sound...

Pam Patterson · Post by **Pam Patterson** » 8 May 2018 4:35 am

Thanks to all of you for responding. I know for a fact that Dad never put anything on the finish... no laquer or anything. Yes, the pick up is original as are the knobs. Had a gentleman gently look into them and he said "oh my, I think I am the first to see these since this was built." Everything under there is original. I didn't have him move the pick up in fear we might mess something up. Dad replaced the tuning knobs and strips a few years back and those are not "historically" correct. The case, picks, slide bars are all original to the guitar.

I would post close up pictures of what the guy said was "orange peeling", but I am not seeing what he is seeing. He was looking at a photo I sent him online so I don't know if when he blew it up it pixelated or what.

So you think this is closer to a 1953? That part I can't figure out, since Dad had it when he married Mom and they were married in 1952. Such a puzzle.

I am not going to learn to play it. I'm a drummer. But we are thinking of selling it. It needs to be played and not just sitting around. I'm trying to research an asking price. It really is in excellent shape. Any thoughts?

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 8 May 2018 6:29 am

Pam Patterson wrote:...we are thinking of selling it. It needs to be played and not just sitting around. I'm trying to research an asking price. It really is in excellent shape. Any thoughts?

Go to eBay and check the sold listings for Fender Champions. They sell for more than they probably should because, as mentioned above, they share several parts with early Telecasters. The likelihood is high that if you sell it, especially on eBay or another auction site, that the buyer will cannibalize it for its parts. There are seemingly always multiple auctions on eBay for the stripped-out carcasses of Fender Champions. The only way to guarantee it won't happen to your dad's guitar is to keep it yourself.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 8 May 2018 8:01 am

That is a genuine mother-of-toilet-seat Fender Champion in impeccable shape. Nothing at all wrong with the finish.

Pam Patterson · Post by **Pam Patterson** » 8 May 2018 8:01 am

Not wanting to sell it on Ebay. I have seen what they are doing to the old guitars and I would rather keep it than have that happen to it. Call me sentimental, but that was my Dad's baby. I have had a few people locally show an interest in it.

Pam Patterson · Post by **Pam Patterson** » 8 May 2018 8:02 am

Mike Neer wrote:That is a genuine mother-of-toilet-seat Fender Champion in impeccable shape. Nothing at all wrong with the finish.

Thank you! This is what I needed to hear after that other guy telling me the finish wasn't right.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 8 May 2018 8:48 am

I agree with Mike, Jim, and others - that finish looks straight to me. I realize it's hard to tell exactly from a picture, but it looks right from here.

I think you should stick to your guns and sell it to someone who will appreciate it. Or keep it - they may go up in time, as the supply of nice Champions dwindles from the amount of parting out being done. These things are getting torn apart all the time, especially for the pickup. IMHO, there's a special place in hell for those who tear apart original, nice vintage instruments strictly to make X% more money. I understand parting out pieces with significant issues - that is often an important source of parts to maintain nice guitars with a broken part, etc. But it really has gotten ridiculous, again IMO.

One more thing - it is standard practice in many 'vintage/antique' markets to beat up on the condition of a piece to try to haggle a lower price. Pointing out condition issues is fine if it's based on fact. But that is not always the case - not only 'buyer beware', but 'seller beware'. Again, IMO.

Pam Patterson · Post by **Pam Patterson** » 21 May 2019 11:11 am

It's been awhile since I posted this, but after going back and forth on selling Dad's guitar or keeping it, I have decided to keep it. I have started lessons and am enjoying it. So I guess Dad's guitar has now become my guitar. Seems funny saying that but I am proud of it and hope to someday be able to play something that actually sounds like a song. These lap steels seem to be a little bit addicting don't they?

David Knutson · Post by **David Knutson** » 21 May 2019 11:24 am

Excellent that you've kept your Dad's old steel and have started playing it. Best possible outcome, in my opinion. And I suspect you will find that it's more than "a little bit addicting". Have fun, and be sure to look around on the forum for the wealth of instruction and advice here.

Allan Revich · Post by **Allan Revich** » 3 Jun 2019 4:11 pm

Pam Patterson wrote:It's been awhile since I posted this, but after going back and forth on selling Dad's guitar or keeping it, I have decided to keep it. I have started lessons and am enjoying it. So I guess Dad's guitar has now become my guitar. Seems funny saying that but I am proud of it and hope to someday be able to play something that actually sounds like a song. These lap steels seem to be a little bit addicting don't they?

Thatâ€™s fantastic! Iâ€™m sure your dad would be over the moon to know that youâ€™re playing it.