keyless.. advantages/disadvantages

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 4 Sep 2005 6:22 am

I have played my Willy keyless on the past 4 or 5 gigs,to get a feel for it in comparison to my beloved Carter..

They are like night and day..
The Willy is a VERY early one and the mechanism is more of an "old school" design,much like my old ProIII, so I am NOT comparing it to Bill's current Williams guitars.. He personally told me there WAS no comparison.

I am wondering what advantages there are to the keyless design besides weight and body size?..

I find this Willy sustains nicely, on a par with any other guitar I've owned, but probably no better than them either.

I just broke the 3rd after about 2 months[maybe 20 hours play time]so its not a string breaker, but again, on a par with my other steels..

Its sounds kind of like a Bud with a wood neck.. little fatter maybe,due to the close to 20 K pickup, a nice tone for certain, but similar to other well made wood neck steels..no better or worse..

It stays in tune open and on the pedals and knees about the same as other all wood steels I've owned.. pretty good, but NOT as good as the Carter.. better than most Buds I've owned.. So far I see no real advantage in tunability over a keyed guitar.

. I like it and will be hanging on to it most likely, but besides portability, I really don't see any REAL distinct advantages over a keyed guitar... also this Willy is an EARLY keyless design,and they may be hugely improved by this time..

This steel IS at least 20 years old,so it may be an unfair comparison, however I AM considering keyed guitars from the same era in my comparisons.....

Any one that plays keyed and keyless guitars care to comment? ... bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 04 September 2005 at 08:12 AM.][This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 04 September 2005 at 08:20 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Sep 2005 8:43 am

Oh, Bob, you are probably going to get several comments on this. I have none, but I'll stay tuned....

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 4 Sep 2005 8:53 am

I plan to reply, but not at this time. I am too weak. The keyless offers too many advantages!

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 4 Sep 2005 9:34 am

Well __ the keyless are ugly; like a beautiful woman with no head.

...and I'll NEVER backdown.

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 4 Sep 2005 9:34 am

Some folks on here have mentioned that the keyless design allows for shorter pedal throw. If true is it a substantial difference? Any comments by anyone with experience in this area are appreciated. The idea of shorter pedal throw appeals alot to me. I also heard a comment where someone was saying they just love a long throw. So there ya go.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 4 Sep 2005 9:43 am

Billy.. Not on this keyless.. I have a looong throw on the Willy.
I can shorten it, but the action would stiffen up significantly, a trade off I am not prepared to make.. It is on a par with a good small pedal Sho Bud from the 70's...

Good and soft, but not as close and precise as my Carter or the MSA guitars I have owned in the past.. Again, as I stated in the post, I like it, but still find no distinct advantage over other guitars I've owned or played... I guess I'm wondering if there is something I'm missing.

bob

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 4 Sep 2005 10:09 am

My GFI keyless has about the same pedal throw as my MCI and Fender had, but a lot less than my ZB.

I timed the sustain and both the GFI and ZB are still sending out vibrations for well over a minute, so that's not an issue.

I look at my ZB like it was a beautiful woman and my GFI like it was an old hag.

Yet, the GFI sounds great, plays great and the keyless head is the fastest thing to change strings on and to tune that I've ever seen.

I would probably buy another one, but will consider going with a Willie simply because the GFI is such a plain jane. If Gene would only offer a custom guitar--say polished aluminum and lacquer and polished tuning heads, I'd never consider another brand.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 4 Sep 2005 10:45 am

Not this again! I thought by now that the facts about keyless guitars would have filtered down into common knowledge. For those who missed it the first time around,check out this thread.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/004059-2.html

Note the comments by Buddy Emmons to the effect that he prefers the sound of a keyless. A search on the subject will reveal lots of threads about this subject.
-MJ-

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 4 Sep 2005 3:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Not this again! I thought by now that the facts about keyless guitars would have filtered down into common knowledge. For those who missed it the first time around,check out this thread.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is a good one Michael! I like the part about "filtering down" That is going to become a classic!

------------------
I'd rather be opinionated, than apathetic!

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 4 Sep 2005 4:12 pm

I am well aware of the THEORETICAL advantages.. I'm just not experiencing them, hence the post. Like I stated, maybe I'M missing something, I just don't see much difference in ANYTHING except looks,weight,and the way you tune the open strings... I see/hear NO difference in sound, playability,tuning stability,sustain, ...
It sounds and plays like a pedal steel....

I certainly wasn't trying to beat a dead horse! My inquiries are genuine... I am wondering what I am suppossed to be experiencing here. The earth hasn't moved as yet! Its really nice, but so were all my other steels. I just wonder why I'm not getting that "I'm a keyless player" vibe going?... Most keyless players LOVE them and would not consider a peghead steel.

[ Just ask my good friend George Redmon... he LOVES that red Whitney Keyless C6 he plays so well! ]

I dunno, I'm just not convinced there ARE any advantages... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 04 September 2005 at 05:13 PM.]

tom anderson · Post by **tom anderson** » 5 Sep 2005 12:14 pm

I had an older U-12 keyless Williams that I loved until I had to change strings in a hurry-took an evening to change a set. Finally learned the trick of bending the ball end like a fishook to fit in the slot at the changer. I also had a keyless Excel. The Excel's keyless tuner was better engineered, but still not real easy to change out a set of strings. I played a Keyless Excel & Keyed Excel at Scotty's convention & could hear a tone difference between the two. Really, I don't think it matters that much between keyless & not. You get used to whatever you have.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 6 Sep 2005 6:02 am

Being a very mechanically oriented guy, I learned the "fish hook" manuever after screwing up only 1 string!... Because of the use of tools to replace strings[Phillips and endplate wrench, I think its a wash between ease of string replacement on a keyed or keyless. I really like the steel, played it in church on Sunday[performed Amazing Grace and Wild Mountain Thyme all by my lonesome during communion.]. it sounded VERY nice, played nice, but its just a pedal steel like any other.. I guess I was looking for some stunning revelation, for some "religious experience" when I got a keyless... not yet.. She's a sweetheart, but so were several others I owned.. I will say this... the sound is big for such a tiny lightweight guitar.. I guess that IS a big advantage when you think about it... bob

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 6 Sep 2005 6:30 am

Hey Bob Carlucci....i will get back with you later this afternoon..i am strapped for time right now,,i promise i will post..George

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 6 Sep 2005 8:05 pm

Hey Bob Carlucci...sorry your are not having a Williams moment. However..you know i have an old Sho~Bud that my daughter is playing on. I sit down to that old dinosaur, and to me it looks 10 feet long, i move my pak a seat to the left, then to the right, then scoot forward, back..then pull my hair out, as i reach for the pedals and miss..no fireworks here either..but you sit our good friends Ricky Davis, or Bobby Seymour behind that Sho~Bud, and they see fireworks alright. You didn't say, what type of earth moving experience you were expecting Bob. I can tell you from owning 3 keyless steels, i would not play anything BUT a keyless..no more pegheads for me. Now Bob, the fact that you can play that steel in church, praise God, is a testimony to the fact, that a keyless steel guitar will make it through the long haul. Bill told you in so many words, that you also have an antique. I bet if you made the trip to see Bill at Williams, fireworks would happen. I will put ANY of the new keyless jobs against any keyed guitar, anyplace, anywhere. I can change a string on mine Bob..before you get the old one taken off that Carter, Now as to advantages...and here..i am talking of MY STEEL ONLY!!! and i will NOT argue these points with anyone..My pedal feel, is as good or better then ANY keyhead, i have equal or BETTER sustain then any guitar on the planet, i DO NOT POP STRINGS! i only broke one string since i've owned my guitar, it was my fault, my guitar is modular looking, sleek, no wire wrapped around a peg you don't need, it's light, shorter, more sturdy. The mechanics on my steel are superior to most. I can make my guitar pedal as stiff or as soft as you like. Most of the new keyless actually play alittle too soft for my taste. And another very important advantage bob, that the link in this post, or this post, did not address..is CABINET DROP!!! none in mine..none in Mitsuo Fujii Excel keyless, none in Genes GFI keyless, none in Williams keyless, none in Paul Redmonds Whitneys...NONE! I invite you Bob to play my guitar, or do a test drive on a great Excel, Williams, or GFI, or the BMI keyless coming out, or the Sierra, ask Bobby Lee if he likes his sierra? or ask Buddy Emmons if he liked the sound of Jeff Newmans Kline? in MHO..the ones who knock the keyless concept, have never played a new keyless steel guitar. Here is a list of just a very few who love or played keyless guitars, Gene Fields, Wally Murphy, Zane Beck, Zane King, Ed Bierdly, Bill Stafford, Winny Winston, Joe Wright..Many others. Why don't more guys play a keyless? MHO, "Tradition" or maybe because so and so doesn't. Now an amusing side to this is..the comments guys make, like the one in this post. I had a guy with green spiked hair look at my keyless and say.."Cool..you play metal", or the one who said.."Oh i see you play one of those new steels that you don't have to tune". a friend of mine plays a Zummer..and he comes up to the band stand and says.."i can't find them..George, where did they hide the tunning keys that year?"..bless their misguided hearts. If i remember right Bob, that steel was not even in working order when you got it, was it? i think you cut it short. You have a nice steel there Bob..leave the earth moving experience's to your wife..now i bet there are still fireworks there Bobby boy....

<img height=400 width=550 src=http://tinypic.com/dfvvjd.jpg
another Whitney keyless player.....

[This message was edited by George Redmon on 06 September 2005 at 09:19 PM.]

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 7 Sep 2005 12:30 am

Hi George,

cool looking steel!
Could you post a picture of the keyless end? and maybe a closeup of the mechaninics 'under the hood'

thanks,
Marco.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 7 Sep 2005 3:47 am

Very sleek, George. I've seen the tuning devices on the changer end, but I like this look a lot.

Bob, do you have a lead sheet, chart, recording, etc. of Wild Mountain Thyme? I'd love to do that, can't get it out of my head lately. All I can remember is the chorus.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 7 Sep 2005 4:37 am

George.. your steel is incredible,, fantastic looking workmanship..wow..
Like I said I LIKE this old Willy, its a good guitar, just not any better than anything else... I have a feeling if it had an aluminum frame, it would be a totally different steel.

Like an old Bud, the entire mechanism is supported by wood and wood screws, not a precision machined frame.. It plays,sounds and tunes on a par with other all wood [frameless] guitars of the era.. CERTAINLY nothing wrong with it, it sounds nice and plays nice, but I just have noticed no real advantages over other steels.. That being said, I would bet my last dollar that if I played a NEW Willy keyless, or a GFI,Excel, or a gorgeous Whitney like yours, I WOULD feel a "keyless moment".. meantime, its a nice guitar that is a pleasure to play, and really has a beautiful "woody" tone... Charlie,,, check your mail.. bob

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 7 Sep 2005 5:02 am

these are great guitars!! and you have to love a guitar named after the builders daughter, I recieved detailed literature and pictures from Paul years ago, it was and still is to me the finest guitar made, the machined detail is incredible, as I recall the frame/body concept eliminates downward pedal pressure from pulling down the body that can cause cabinet drop detune[This message was edited by jim milewski on 07 September 2005 at 02:00 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Sep 2005 5:33 am

Never tried one, but I thought one of the main advantages of a keyless was that there is no "slack" in the mechanical tuning mechanism; so they can be tuned more precisely. I would think that would be true of all of them, even the old ones.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 7 Sep 2005 8:56 am

Is Whitney still in biz?
That axe looks great!
Those pedals answer the question... Where's the Beef?!
Is there a changer at both ends? I know BMI made some like that, separate changers for raises and lowers, I think.
Also, It looks like there is no reversing mechanism for some of the knees (I think I see cross rods below the pull rods on some levers). The elimination of reversing mechanisms for Right moving knee levers is something all brands should investigate.
That Whitney looks cool!
Please shoot me their contact info if they are still at it.
Viva la Keyless!

Lillie Powles · Post by **Lillie Powles** » 7 Sep 2005 10:56 am

how can something so mechanical, be so beautiful, this to me, is true art. Very easy on the eyes and ears. May i PLEASE play it?