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Topic: Body material, tone, and sustain |
Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 9:15 am |
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I am curious as to the relationship between body material, tone, and sustain.
I know that historically when Les Paul built his electric guitar out of a plank of wood he got unheard-of sustain, and I know that pedal steels are legendary in this regard. But - I see a lot of opinions regarding this or that specific wood, plywood, formica, and suchlike, and I wonder to what extent there are empirical facts to support them, or whether they are based on observation and experience and differ from player to player.
I am considering building a pedal steel body and neck out of carbon fiber sandwich board with a foam or balsa core, so my question is not entirely theoretical or simple curiosity.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 9:40 am
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My contribution/modification doesn't contain carbon fiber, and as it stands the old (Dekley) frame that carries it is seriously over-dimensioned…
http://www.gunlaug.no/msc/smc-090617.html
… but other PSGs constructions will have a hard time beating it on sustain and/or tuning stability.
Might give you an idea or two. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 10:39 am
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There must be some reason that pedal steel guitar builders have been using hard rock maple for many years.
Erv |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 10:53 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
There must be some reason that pedal steel guitar builders have been using hard rock maple for many years.
Erv |
Maybe the reason is that they all have been using hard rock maple for many years? Why be the one to change? |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 10:58 am
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Right, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
It'll be a cold day, you know where, before I buy a pedal steel constructed of foam or balsa wood! 
Erv |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 11:09 am
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Repeat after me..”there is no such thing as tone wood...there is no such thing as tone wood “ ! It only matters on acoustic instruments with thin resonating tops, such as violin,cello,acoustic guitars etc. Yo Yo Ma even used a carbon fiber cello.
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 11:11 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
It'll be a cold day, you know where, before I buy a pedal steel constructed of foam or balsa wood!
Erv |
Me too, but I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the rest of the wood too, unless I was in need of some to heat up that very same place  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 11:15 am
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There are a lot of factors that affect sustain, the body material is just one of them. What seems most important is the combination of materials, their mass, and how they are used (formed, or joined together). You can't necessarily tell what's good and bad until you actually build it, because many nearly identical combinations have yielded vastly different results.
MSA built their Millennium series of pedal steels using formed carbon fiber for the bodies, so it's not really a new idea to use lightweight synthetic composites. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 11:29 am
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| One thing about using balsa wood, it would be light! |
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Jon Irsik
From:
Wichita, KS USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 1:12 pm
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| Dustin Rigsby wrote: |
| Repeat after me..”there is no such thing as tone wood...there is no such thing as tone wood “ ! It only matters on acoustic instruments with thin resonating tops, such as violin,cello,acoustic guitars etc. Yo Yo Ma even used a carbon fiber cello. |
This is patently untrue...I can tell a difference on regular six string guitars that are mahogany (SG, PRS), mahogany capped with Maple (Les Paul) and alder, ash or even pine on Strats and Telecasters.
There has long been a notable tone difference in the old wood bodied Sho-Buds vs Mica and wood Emmons, Zum, etc. Many of the new MSA's in Dallas were wood bodied guitars. |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 4:39 pm
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| I am building Spanish guitars this way and want a similar pedal steel. My favorite new guitar has a skinned fir neck. I recommend Paulownia. They’ve been using it for instruments in Asia for centuries. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 7:00 pm
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| Jon Irsik wrote: |
| Dustin Rigsby wrote: |
| Repeat after me..”there is no such thing as tone wood...there is no such thing as tone wood “ ! It only matters on acoustic instruments with thin resonating tops, such as violin,cello,acoustic guitars etc. |
This is patently untrue...I can tell a difference on regular six string guitars that are mahogany (SG, PRS), mahogany capped with Maple (Les Paul) and alder, ash or even pine on Strats and Telecasters.
There has long been a notable tone difference in the old wood bodied Sho-Buds vs Mica and wood Emmons, Zum, etc. Many of the new MSA's in Dallas were wood bodied guitars. |
Six-string guitars exaggerate the differences, somewhat. That's because their construction is so much different. The neck on a six-string, how it's designed and fastened, is a major contributor to the sound. On a pedal steel, there is far more mass to contend with, and no freely vibrating element like the neck of a straight guitar. The differences in pedal steels of very similar construction are also easily illustrated if you compare a ZB with a Sho~Bud, or a Franklin with a Legrande. I've even heard an Emmons and a Mullen played side-by-side, and the Mullen sounded far more like an Emmons than the Emmons did! (Ask Curry Coster, he was with me.) |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 7:04 pm
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Google “will’s easy guitar tonewood”. Will Gelvin debunked tonewood on his YouTube channel.
_________________
D.S. Rigsby |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 7:43 pm
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| If there’s far less mass to contend with, why are they so heavy? I’d think it’s the opposite-there’s far more since they have a lot less insulation from the stage (rubber feet as opposed to being pressed against and suspended on a human body). |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 8:28 pm
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| I checked out the Wills Tonewood guy. It doesn’t apply to pedal steel and he has a pretty rudimentary understanding of how it applies to Spanish guitar. Finish,, whether it’s epoxy, nitro, plastic (poly) or varnish, and the water/resin content sealed into the wood are probably more important than the wood as well. I think reality is #1 who’s picking and their personal choices,2 electronics,3 construction and 4 materials but that should not down play the materials. There are so many other things in play on a spanish guitar, it can be confusing to quantify them and I spend a good chunk of my time doing just that. I do triple stop bends and try to use as much counterpoint as I can on Spanish guitar; I am going to sound different on identical twin guitars if they have different radii. Pedal steel has even more variables. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2018 10:55 pm
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| Dustin Rigsby wrote: |
| Repeat after me..”there is no such thing as tone wood...there is no such thing as tone wood “ ! It only matters on acoustic instruments with thin resonating tops, such as violin,cello,acoustic guitars etc. Yo Yo Ma even used a carbon fiber cello. |
I would have agreed a year ago, Dustin, but then I took part in a Sierra prototype tone test. Two of the guitars had a maple top deck, and the third was spruce. The difference was instantly noticeable to everyone in the room. The new Sierra top is designed for resonance, more-so than most other pedal steels.
Electric guitarists claim to hear a difference between ash and alder Telecasters. A Fender Deluxe 8 doesn't sound like a Stringmaster D-8. In fact, the two necks of a Stringmaster sound different, presumably because of the different thickness of the wood.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 4:41 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Dustin Rigsby wrote: |
| Repeat after me..â€there is no such thing as tone wood...there is no such thing as tone wood “ ! It only matters on acoustic instruments with thin resonating tops, such as violin,cello,acoustic guitars etc. Yo Yo Ma even used a carbon fiber cello. |
I would have agreed a year ago, Dustin, but then I took part in a Sierra prototype tone test. Two of the guitars had a maple top deck, and the third was spruce. The difference was instantly noticeable to everyone in the room. The new Sierra top is designed for resonance, more-so than most other pedal steels.
Electric guitarists claim to hear a difference between ash and alder Telecasters. A Fender Deluxe 8 doesn't sound like a Stringmaster D-8. In fact, the two necks of a Stringmaster sound different, presumably because of the different thickness of the wood. |
Would the aprons make a difference, or just the top deck?
And are the "necks" part of the top deck and the same wood, or different? And does that affect the tone?
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 7:47 am
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I dunno. I can’t believe that I let myself get sucked into this thread as well
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D.S. Rigsby |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 8:14 am
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| b0b wrote: |
Two of the guitars had a maple top deck, and the third was spruce. The difference was instantly noticeable to everyone in the room. The new Sierra top is designed for resonance, more-so than most other pedal steels.
Electric guitarists claim to hear a difference between ash and alder Telecasters. A Fender Deluxe 8 doesn't sound like a Stringmaster D-8. In fact, the two necks of a Stringmaster sound different, presumably because of the different thickness of the wood. |
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
Would the aprons make a difference, or just the top deck?
And are the "necks" part of the top deck and the same wood, or different? And does that affect the tone? |
On the new Sierra by Ross Shafer, the top deck is not attached to the side aprons. At all. There is a gap between them. The neck is attached at the ends and the center, but there is space under most of it to allow the top wood to resonate.
Watch Ross assemble a body at https://youtu.be/2VzLaxJ4HfQ.
The guitars in the tone test had maple aprons. The necks were maple with rosewood fretboards (I think). The difference was primarily the top wood.
On more traditional pedal steels, resonance is less controlled. The neck, the front and back aprons, even the undercarriage parts are all coupled to the string vibration. This may be good or bad for tone and sustain - I can't say - but there's no denying that it's a physical fact. Take care in selecting your materials. Those choices matter!
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 8:31 am
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Slight correction to Bob's post above.
The tone test guitars he speaks of all had maple sides, and Honduran rosewood necks. Two of them (24.5" and 25" scale) had maple tops and one (25" scale) had a "torrified" (thermally treated) Sitka Spruce top.
I'm a firm believer that the construction has more affect than materials, but I think everything to do with the assembly has some effect. Then of course there's the player....the really good ones get the tone they're after from a wide variety of set ups.
I was guitar tech at a show once where Robben Ford provided an awesome display of "the tone is in the hands" thing in an amazing less than 5 minute sound check with rented equipment. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 9:58 am
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| I'm curious as to why Sitka Spruce was chosen for a comparison? It's a very lightweight wood, not at all comparable to any type of maple. I do think it's pretty well accepted that lightweight woods don't fare well for use on steel guitars and solid-bodied electric guitars. Other woods, like Hackberry, Sapele, White Ash, and Black Walnut are far closer to Maple in hardness and weight. I do find the coved necks interesting, though, and would like to hear comparisons between those and flat maple, and regular (hollow) aluminum necks. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 11:00 am
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| Quote: |
| But - I see a lot of opinions regarding this or that specific wood, plywood, formica, and suchlike, and I wonder to what extent there are empirical facts to support them, or whether they are based on observation and experience and differ from player to player. |
The pedal steel world does have a lot of opinions on the subject.
Factual data can be found in acoustic theory textbooks - I studied the subject in college - and on many luthier websites.
Materials AND construction each have tonal effects. So does weight. So do the alloys, cores, windings, plating and such of strings - along with the gages and tension. the radius of string attachment points affects sustain (along with several of the previously mentioned factors). "Plywood" is a huge wild card, as the type(s) of wood, orientation, thicknesses, adhesives, weight - you name it - change the tonal factors.
And "construction" includes such things as connection of materials (method and what combinations of materials are used), penetrations (holes) and their position(s) in relation to string attachment points, items connected (tuners, pickups, mechanical parts) and their connection and weight)...
...and so on and so on.
On an electric instrument a pickup can focus or screw up the sound that's routed to support equipment, but can't improve the inherent tone of an instrument or add sustain without changing tone.
And players do not have "tone". Tone is NOT in the hands. That is probably the most widespread misunderstanding in the guitar world. Every time I read that one I roflmao.
Players can affect what frequencies are heard by changing their picking position. This alters the wave pattern - how a string moves. But the inherent tone of the instrument does not change. What many *think* they hear as "tone in the hands" is the player's style.
A player with a truly distinctive style may sound like themselves on any instrument, but they do NOT carry "a tone" around in their hands.
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_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 20 Mar 2018 12:16 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| I'm curious as to why Sitka Spruce was chosen for a comparison? It's a very lightweight wood, not at all comparable to any type of maple. I do think it's pretty well accepted that lightweight woods don't fare well for use on steel guitars and solid-bodied electric guitars. Other woods, like Hackberry, Sapele, White Ash, and Black Walnut are far closer to Maple in hardness and weight. I do find the coved necks interesting, though, and would like to hear comparisons between those and flat maple, and regular (hollow) aluminum necks. |
Stiffness isn't mentioned above, but I suspect you may've meant it when saying hardness, perhaps not. Why Spruce? It has a stiffness to weight ratio that's pretty amazing. The spruce top I made weighed exactly 1 pound less than a 1/2" shorter maple top. Using a dial indicator and a 35lb weight in the middle of each I found that the lighter spruce top deflected the same amount (within .002") of the shorter heavier Maple top.
The spruce top which has been mentioned by Bob and Dave Zirbel is noticeably more resonant and louder acoustically and not everyone's favorite compared to the more trad. maple tops. That said...Senor Zirbel has gotten quite attached to the tone of the spruce guitar and has already said he hoped he didn't make a mistake going with the maple. We gear queers can be so fickle! Should know soon!
I apprenticed with an arch top builder back in 2000-2001 (Taku Saksahta, RIP)....he built a strat type guitar with a hipshot trem bolt on maple neck and spruce body...the sucker sounded amazing. Another old pal has been building doug fur teles for years, they too sound awesome. Surely you're aware of the great sound that can be had from these teles built from old reclaimed pine boards....kind of a schtick these days, but there's somethin' about those light woods....also keep in mind....Ash can be extremely light.
Jeff Traugott a very well respected acoustic guitar builder, also builds some very special solid electrics...when I last spoke to him he used redwood exclusively for the solid bodies....the biggest drawback to some of these woods is how easily they'll dent. But dents are in on guitars in now right?
Because of how dentable the spruce top is I don't recommend it to customers, but that's the only reason...the thermally treated stuff (think artificial aging) has an awesome deep mineral like beauty to its grain and is indeed more dense and harder than un-treated.
Jim Sliff...you're right about the style thing.....Robben's "style" knowledge and creativity is where his consistent incredible tone comes from....this happens due to the brain's connection to his hands and in turn his hands connection to the guitar.
Potato, tomato......given the back probs I'm having right now rolling on the floor laughing sounds painful. don't hurt yourself! |
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