Why are old MSAs worth less?

[Al Evans]

I've seen several several people mention this, so evidently it's a general thing. I'm glad it's the case, because unlike these mythical folks mentioned in another thread for whom 10 grand isn't that much money, it certainly is for me. I wouldn't have a pedal steel if I hadn't gotten an old MSA at a reasonable price.

But why are they less expensive that an old Emmons or Shobud? I'm not perceiving any lack of quality in the construction or operation, and I seem to get a good sound out of it. But I'm all but completely ignorant, and have no experience whatever with any other pedal steel, so....

I'd be interested to know what the difference is.

--Al Evans

[Jim Pitman]

I can only tell you my experience.
I bought a new MSA "Universal" in 1982 or so and was real impressed with it's mechanics, playability, and tuning stability. Eventually though, I realized I was looking for a different tone. That era MSA tended to be dark to me and I was looking for a brighter tone. I attribute that to the top wood being quite thick comparred to other guitars which exhibited a glassier tone. I tried many pickups too but never was really happy. Keep in mind this is my tone prefference and also the universal was built on the "vintage" cabinet. I have never played a "Classic cabinet MSA" so can't speek to that.

[Stu Schulman]

In about 1972 I sold my Sho-Bud 6139 to buy an MSA Semi-Classic because they had some MSA guitars in the window of Mannys NYC,The guitar was made from some sorta Swedish plywood?and it bit me ,I thought that it might be the pick-up?So my friend Steve Bluecher at guitar Lab played an MSA he asked Larry DiMarzio to Make a replacement pickup $15.00 still sounded woof!around this time I went to Dallas with a bunch of lunatics,I brought the Guitar to MSA,Reece and his brother Jerry put another pickup in and still woof a few months later I moved to Austin got a gig with the late B.W.Stevenson and ordered the first Sho-Bud Lloyd Green guitar in Texas probably 1973,and I was no longer fighting for tone.Reece and Jerry were the nicest people,that semi classic left me gun shy to MSA guitars until I saw David Wright's guitar,Since then I've heard some really great ones and Kyle and Mitchell have got it together and that Adams guy...it's a whole different thing now.

[Bill C. Buntin]

de

[Dave Mudgett]

If you're talking older MSAs like the 70s Classics, I think the biggest reason is weight.

I had a '74 MSA D10 classic. It played well, sounded good, black mica, absolutely mint condition. The mechanics were totally solid, especially when you consider the build date. MSA Supersustain pickups were a bit dark, which was totally great for C6. But at the suggestion of Bob Carlucci, I got a real lightly-wound single-coil for E9 - I think it was a Wallace Truetone. Made a huge difference.

But it was 100 pounds in the case. I remember having to hand-carry that guitar about a half mile across a field to a wedding gig. Grass was too tall to use a hand-truck, Lord knows I tried. MSA Classic D10 in one hand, Session 500 in the other. You gotta be kidding me. I've continuosly worked out, including weights, for the last 35 years. But that was it for me, I jettisoned them both. I can't imagine someone who is not in good shape handling one of these things. Breaks your back just taking it out of the case if you aren't in shape.

Yes, there were a lot made, and the plywood bodies on the old Classics turn people off. They are kind of industrial-looking. And yes, the Supersustain pickups had their own sound. And of course, they don't have the mystique of an old push-pull or early Sho Bud. But I think the weight is a deal breaker for a lot of players.

[Dustin Rigsby]

Because Buddy Emmons didn’t design it,Therefore it can’t be any good!

[Ross Shafer]

My first steel was a MSA Classic I bought from Bobbe Seymour (yes I have the requisite Bobbe stories to go with buying a guitar sight unseen). I loved it! As a long time maker of things, I was really impressed with the high level of machining and precision used in they're construction. Like Sierra's I think they were at the forefront of steel design and production practices back in the day.

I agree with Bill B. that most of the reason they don't command higher prices is the number of them that were built....lot's and lot's back in steel's heyday.

I wanted to respond to Al Evans' original post on this thread "....because unlike these mythical folks mentioned in another thread for whom 10 grand isn't that much money..."

I'm pretty sure I know what thread (s) you're referring too and I don't think anyone said anything like $10k isn't a lot of dough. It definitely is a lot of dough for most of us. Agreeing on whether or not $10k is a lot of money has nothing to do with whether something is worth spending $10k on or not....different questions entirely.

Hope no offense is taken Al, just trying to keep things in line with what's actually been discussed.

[Al Evans]

Hope no offense is taken Al, just trying to keep things in line with what's actually been discussed.

None at all. Heck, one of my good friends builds acoustic guitars that regularly sell for $10 grand and (much) more.

I won't ever own one, though. I've got a fair number of musical instruments, and the prices have ranged from about $500 (for a hundred-year-old upright piano which, I admit, I spent another $6-700 getting fixed up right) to $5000 (an acoustic guitar build by another friend, which plays like it cost a lot more). Only one of the ones I like best cost much over $1000. But now I'm old and have a fixed income, so I feel lucky to have this pedal steel at all.

As to the dark tone, maybe that's why someone put a GeorgL pickup on the E9 neck. I haven't figured out enough to use the C6th neck yet, which still has the original SuperSustain pickup. It needs new strings, so I don't really know what it sounds like.

--Al Evans

[Marco Schouten]

Because Buddy Emmons didn’t design it,Therefore it can’t be any good!

Maybe close.
All the big names back in the day played Sho-Bud and Emmons.
Therefore, I believe, these were the most wanted brands. I can think of only Curly Chalker giving MSA some exposure.

[Ed Boyd]

My guitar is an old lacquered MSA D10. The only guitar I have ever played so I have no other frame of reference.

I like the guitar a lot but I want something different that doesn't weigh a hundred pounds. I would never pay big money for a MSA just due to the weight. The price of a used MSA is their big advantage. I might consider an old MSA S10 if it plays like my D10 and would cut the weight in half.

[Michael Brebes]

My first pedal steel was an MSA S10 with the plywood body. I swapped pickups and was able to get a good tone, but there was no sustain. I got a good deal on an MSA D10 that was a solid wood body instead of the plywood. Again I had to replace the pickups, which were too dark, but it had all the sustain that I wanted. I still have that one. The year or two of the plywood bodies was an idea that turned out to be a bad one.

[Donny Hinson]

IMHO, each guitar has a certain "voice", a certain tonal range that it excels in. My plywood MSA is certainly lacking in high-end sustain, but it really excels in the lower ranges. My p/p Emmons excels in the mid and high ranges, but has nothing like the ballsy, organ-like bass of the old MSA. Most other guitars I've played usually fell somewhere in between the p/p Emmons and the older MSA, but I don't think any guitar I ever played sounded "bad", they just sounded different.

There are a lot of "tone snobs" out there, and most pedal steelers are very narrow-minded when it comes to sound. They have one specific tone or sound they like, and everything else sounds like $#!& to them.

Their (and our) loss.

[Bob Carlucci]

Mainly because they didn't sound like the sexier brands of that era... Sho Bud/Emmons/ZB/ and even Fender cable models were all in wide use in the 70's-80's, and other brands such as Zum and Mullen were being used by the "big name" steel players of the day increasingly.

Chalker is the only big name steel player I can recall that always used an MSA.. Reece did as well of course, but he wasn't seen regularly on TV, and and on popular records.. During the "original MSA" heyday, it was the country rocker wannabe /newbie steel players that were buying pedal guitars, and their heroes were ALL playing non MSA guitars

Most of the country rock records, as well as the "real" country had players that used Bud/Emmons/ZB /and Fender.. people DID look at brands.. Once MSA got a rep for being "dark sounding" it stuck.. I agree the older mica/plywood bodies were darker, but the sound was really much improved once MSA went to Maple.. However, they still didn't sound like a Sho bud.. To me MSA guitars were a trade off.. They were light years ahead of most other guitars mechanically in that era, and NEVER went out of tune.. however. they did not have that whiny twang that was so beloved by steel players at the time... tastes have changed, and that twangy, whiny chime is no longer in vogue among most steel players.. Now guys want a massive thick tone with infinite pipe organ like sustain.. With todays electronics you can make an MSA sound like pretty much any other pedal steel. bob

[Brooks Montgomery]

Most of the country rock records, as well as the "real" country had players that used Bud/Emmons/ZB /and Fender.. people DID look at brands.. Once MSA got a rep for being "dark sounding" it stuck.. I agree the older mica/plywood bodies were darker, but the sound was really much improved once MSA went to Maple.. However, they still didn't sound like a Sho bud.

Bob, not to stray too far from the original post, but how do you feel the Mullen Royal Precisions factor into the sound of the Bud/Emmons/ZB/Fenders that you describe?

[Skip Ellis]

Those little 'SS' MSAs are hard to beat - wish I still had the one I sold. My complaint about the other models is they used the same keyhead on the 10s that they used on the 12s and it was just weird looking and really long. Heavy, too!!

[Bob Carlucci]

Most of the country rock records, as well as the "real" country had players that used Bud/Emmons/ZB /and Fender.. people DID look at brands.. Once MSA got a rep for being "dark sounding" it stuck.. I agree the older mica/plywood bodies were darker, but the sound was really much improved once MSA went to Maple.. However, they still didn't sound like a Sho bud.

Bob, not to stray too far from the original post, but how do you feel the Mullen Royal Precisions factor into the sound of the Bud/Emmons/ZB/Fenders that you describe?

Thats a steel I am not familiar with, and can't comment on its sound.. The guitars I mentioned in my post, had that classic "country twang", that went out of style in the early 80's when players started using a much more lush, refined, processed sound.. Today with the technology thats available, you can get a thick, lush sounding guitar to have a nice country twang and vice versa.. the guitars today, are more dependable for the most part than the guitars of the 60's-70's, IMHO... bob

[Joseph Napolitano]

Those little 'SS' MSAs are hard to beat - wish I still had the one I sold. My complaint about the other models is they used the same keyhead on the 10s that they used on the 12s and it was just weird looking and really long. Heavy, too!!

I have a "little" green lacquer Classic SS D10. Beautiful guitar , wonderful tone , Great sustain up high, NEVER goes out of tune, medium weight , low maintenance because it's built so well. I love this guitar especially the tone and tuning stability . Thought about selling it at times, but can't bring myself to do it. I've read many posts over the years where people regret selling theirs. I think I got lucky when I got this, buying one of the company's best works.

[Dustin Rigsby]

I put a Telonics pickup on my mica MSA. That coupled with a Hilton buffer took it from blah to WOW !

[Rich Peterson]

I put a Telonics pickup on my mica MSA. That coupled with a Hilton buffer took it from blah to WOW !

I think the buffer is probably a very good idea. Build it right into the guitar, between the pickup and output jack.

My Classic S-10 sounds good to me with the Super Sustain humbucker going into a Guitar Fetish Neo-vin buffer-booster-EQ. A buffer made specifically for PSG would sound even better, I think.

[Karl Nutt]

My first steel was a brand new white MSA Classic 8+4. My dad bought it for me in 1975. It had the Super Sustain pickups and like the others have stated, was heavy. It's the only steel I've had that the handle broke on the case while I was loading it into the trunk of my dad's 73 LTD. However, it was anvil reliable and stayed in tune. My second steel was a MSA Classic SS with the Super Sustain II pickups 8+5, burgundy lacquer. This was a GREAT sounding guitar. I regret selling it to this day. I got it brand new in 1979. It paid for itself many times over!

[Chance Wilson]

because we can't get our priorities straight. Unless you can play better than this, I wouldn't worry about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w-A3kIF4dY

[b0b]

I never owned an old MSA but I re-rodded one once. I found it very difficult to time the pulls correctly. Some people say they are good instruments, but in my opinion the machinery leaves a lot to be desired, especially when compared to modern pedal steels.

As for tone, that's a personal preference. If you want to nail the Bakersfield or Nashville sound, you might have a hard time doing that on an MSA. But if you're in Texas, no problem.

Notice that the only "antique" pedal steels you see on stage at the big steel shows are Emmons push-pulls (excepting Lloyd Green's original Sho~Bud LDG). There's a reason for that. Emmons were the best steels made back in the day. That high quality design and construction holds up.

Sho~Bud guitars are pretty. I think that's a lot of the attraction and the reason for the high prices. Old wood looks better than old formica. And they do have that classic Nashville tone.

[Ian Rae]

20+ replies in <6hrs. Popular thread and informative. I nearly bought an MSA 12-string once but the weight put me off when part of the uni idea is to save some.

[Ken Pippus]

Okay, so we’re talking about a 100 lb guitar which requires multiple efforts to bring it to deliver a tone you might like, which is built to last forever, but doesn’t perform too elegantly during that period, and has a really ugly exposed metal back panel, and trying to figure out why nobody wants to spend $3500 on one?

JMHO. YMMV.

[Ken Pippus]

All of that said, I love the tone Chalker got out of his!