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Topic: Day -> Emmons conversion |
Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 6:47 am |
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After reading this thread
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1319316&sid=b6533cb99f4c8fb62d1684e20040821d
and considering what I was finding difficult as a beginner, I spent yesterday converting my Carter D10 to an Emmons setup.
The stuff my band plays has a lot of 1-6m-4-5 progressions (what a friend calls "ice cream chords") and I was having a terrible time rocking my foot to the right to press my A pedal only at pedal 3. So I put it at pedal 1 where I would rock my ankle "out" and my proficiency went up instantly.
While I was at it, based on this paragraph from Tom Bradshaw,
I swapped left and right knee levers, keeping the "left and right" directions as they were but swapping which knee operated each pair. I haven't used the knee levers enough yet to see any benefit, but his reasoning made sense to me, although so far I'm having difficulty training my right knee to work levers without simultaneously making involuntary volume changes.
As a side benefit I am now much more intimately aware of the processes and mechanisms involved in pedal steel.
And I didn't even break it!
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 9:18 am
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I'm sure a person could get used to either way.
But I find it much more natural to have the LKL = F and the LKR = E. Because the A pedal & F lever get used together, and the B pedal and E lever get used together. Makes for one fluid motion with my leg.
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"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 9:45 am
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| Eric Dahlhoff wrote: |
I'm sure a person could get used to either way.
But I find it much more natural to have the LKL = F and the LKR = E. Because the A pedal & F lever get used together, and the B pedal and E lever get used together. Makes for one fluid motion with my leg. |
I haven't used levers much yet - my first objective was to gain some fluency with the A&B pedals, which I am at least gaining on. But I had found that the A-B pedal, C pedal, and LKL move I needed to run descending scales was pretty raggedy, and I use scales and scale fragments in lead licks a lot.
It's not inconceivable I could swap the levers back, but the pedal change is here to stay.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 10:40 am
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| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| It's not inconceivable I could swap the levers back... |
Yes, keep an open mind on that.
Those most-used knee levers get a workout. I found that it was more difficult to use the volume pedal smoothly when the E-lower was on the right knee. Lots of folks do just fine, but it was a struggle for me to do smooth volume pedal work while spending half my time engaging and disengaging those two E-string knee levers.
Meanwhile, left foot work doesn't require quite as much nuance (only when you're half-pedaling and things like that). It's easy, even though you're constantly slamming those E raise/lower levers around, to jump around on the pedals with the left foot. I suspect that's one reason why a Forum poll showed the majority have both E changes on the left knee. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 1:32 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| It's not inconceivable I could swap the levers back... |
Yes, keep an open mind on that.
Those most-used knee levers get a workout. I found that it was more difficult to use the volume pedal smoothly when the E-lower was on the right knee. Lots of folks do just fine, but it was a struggle for me to do smooth volume pedal work while spending half my time engaging and disengaging those two E-string knee levers.
Meanwhile, left foot work doesn't require quite as much nuance (only when you're half-pedaling and things like that). It's easy, even though you're constantly slamming those E raise/lower levers around, to jump around on the pedals with the left foot. I suspect that's one reason why a Forum poll showed the majority have both E changes on the left knee. |
Excellent points. It's already driving me crazy on the volume oedal. Left foot is up or down. Takes a simpler brain circuit to manage it, leaves more headroom.
The hardest thing about doing it was updating my fussy multicolored copedent spreadsheet, and I can handle that. The lever change may not last long.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 2:50 pm
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There is an interesting discussion on the forum somewhere in the past where Buddy E and Paul F. discussed the merits/drawbacks of having the E to D# lever on LKR or RKL. One of the principle points was if you wanted to go from D# to F in one fluid move - with the standard Emmons arrangement, it ain't easy! Buddy, of course, could pull it off n.p. - he said (IIRC) that he raised his knee up to be futher into the levers, so less motion gave the change. But, of course, it would be dead simple with Paul's arrangement.
Now, admittedly, this is not that common a move. One example I know of is the opening 4 chords on "Will's Point". But Paul's logic swayed me, and I decided I would set my next guitar up that way.... but then I thought about how many songs I play without even thinking about the moves - just ingrained in my playing - and never did it. Just this past week I was thinking about it again... but not sure I want to make the change.
I agree with the issues RE: volume pedal. My volume pedal technique sucks! I still have a tendency to change volume unintentionally whenever I use my RK levers. But I've got some re-rodding coming up soon as I learn more about playing this beast - no new pulls, just re-arranging what I have a little. So maybe I will try it on one guitar and see what I think.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 1:06 pm
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Another not yet mentioned upside is if you get to sit in on another players PSG, it will most likely be Emmons setup. I played Day setup for years, retired for a few years, got a new guitar with Emmons, played for a while and tried playing a friends Day setup and was totally lost. (still am,lost that is)
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Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 11:18 am Day or Emmons
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When I bought my first guitar, my friend the Steel Player took my guitar home & changed my Professional D-10 Sho~Bud to the Day Way from the Emmons configuration. He said, you'll thank me all your playing days, that I've done this.
That was 45 years ago & about 7 guitars (all were converted)
I tried the ABC way but could NOT get my ankle to bend inward, so I went to CBA & everything worked well.
I can't believe some one would go the Emmons way on a guitar that was already setup the Day way. But Hey, it's their Guitar... Good Luck to ya...
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Steel Guitar players are members of a Special Family |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 12:38 pm Re: Day or Emmons
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| Charley Bond wrote: |
When I bought my first guitar, my friend the Steel Player took my guitar home & changed my Professional D-10 Sho~Bud to the Day Way from the Emmons configuration. He said, you'll thank me all your playing days, that I've done this.
That was 45 years ago & about 7 guitars (all were converted)
I tried the ABC way but could NOT get my ankle to bend inward, so I went to CBA & everything worked well.
I can't believe some one would go the Emmons way on a guitar that was already setup the Day way. But Hey, it's their Guitar... Good Luck to ya... |
That's very interesting. I had to bend my ankle inward on C-B-A for every run-of-the-mill 1-6m-4-5 song we play, which is about half our repertoire, to get the A pedal only. With A-B-C I bend it outward for that chord. I'm thinking the big difference may be in repertoire - we lean toward different music styles.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 12:41 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| It's not inconceivable I could swap the levers back... |
Yes, keep an open mind on that.
Those most-used knee levers get a workout. I found that it was more difficult to use the volume pedal smoothly when the E-lower was on the right knee. Lots of folks do just fine, but it was a struggle for me to do smooth volume pedal work while spending half my time engaging and disengaging those two E-string knee levers.
Meanwhile, left foot work doesn't require quite as much nuance (only when you're half-pedaling and things like that). It's easy, even though you're constantly slamming those E raise/lower levers around, to jump around on the pedals with the left foot. I suspect that's one reason why a Forum poll showed the majority have both E changes on the left knee. |
The levers are back to the status quo ante. I couldn't cope with the volume pedal at all the other way. I'm poor enough with it given every possible advantage.
But hey - I'm pretty intimate with the guts of my Carter now, too. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 12:44 pm Re: Day or Emmons
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| Charley Bond wrote: |
| When I bought my first guitar, my friend the Steel Player took my guitar home & changed my Professional D-10 Sho~Bud to the Day Way from the Emmons configuration. He said, you'll thank me all your playing days, that I've done this. |
My opinion: nobody should be switching their setup from one to the other -- even if an experienced player tells them it's "best" -- without checking out the only thing that matters, and that's which way does the left ankle bend easier. A purely ergonomic decision cannot be made by another steel player, no matter how well it works for them. It's a personal thing rather than a universal "one way is always better than the other."
So... you got lucky, my friend. Your buddy forced you to a Day setup, but it happened to work out OK because your ankle likes to bend that way. Meanwhile, most players don't play the Day setup, so that experiment could have easily gone wrong if your ankle preference had been like most people's.
Regardless of how the guitar is currently set up, all a newbie has to do is put their foot down on two pedals and bend their ankle. To simulate an Emmons setup, the foot goes on pedals 1 and 2. To simulate Day, it goes on 2 and 3:
If staying on 2 and releasing 1 is easier, they're an Emmons person.
If staying on 2 and releasing 3 is easier, they're a Day player.
Once ankle-bending preference has been established, I think it goes from being a "don't change anything" to a "must change" situation if the guitar doesn't match the player's ankle mechanics. If the guitar needs to be converted, I'm a fan of having the location of the E-raise and E-lower knee levers changed to match the new pedal lineup. Whichever setup you use, you need to be able to do the A+F move (the E-raise works naturally for this on LKL for Emmons, or LKR on the Day setup). |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 1:32 pm
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A good way to check which might be better for you, is to back the nylon nut for the 4th string (C pedal) so it only raises string 5. That makes it the same as the A pedal. You end up with an A pedal on each side of the B pedal. If you have a friend that has a psg, then ask him if you try that.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 4:33 pm Ankle movement
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Mr Tucker... my friend set me down at his guitar, before we started the trip.
He explained to me what he was checking for, before we made the swap. That was about 1973 or close to it. I've tried other guitars since, but with no luck. My ankle is a Day ankle & I'm glad it turned out that way. I even have to have my A & B set special, because there is no ROCK in my ankle.
I'm glad that all the players have this forum for learning about the Pedal Steel Guitar
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Steel Guitar players are members of a Special Family |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 5:31 pm
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| Good word, Charley. I figured from the prior description that your friend didn't test you out -- just decided to change you over to the Day setup based on the fact he liked it. That kind of thing makes my head explode... glad it didn't go down that way. |
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