E9 vs C6 for jazz?

[Daniel Buller]

Hi,

Young left handed steeler here in my mid 20's. Anyways I'm curious how much more beneficial having a C6 neck is for playing jazz. Let me elaborate:

I'm experienced playing bebop and jazz on standard guitar. My current steel is a lefty single neck Fessenden 3x5. I feel like I've made some good strides towards playing jazz on the E9 neck. I've worked out bebop heads for some Bird, Dizzie, Bud Powell tunes etc...

And as far as as using the instrument harmonically I feel like I can find most of the chord voicings I want just playing the 3rds and 7ths of chords and adding extensions from there (eliminating roots and 5ths most of the time...) Obviously I can see the lack of range in the bass of the E9 neck, but I wondering how much more beneficial the C6 neck would be for me. In the tuning intervallically more convenient for playing in this style on PSG?

Also I've seen other posts where folks refer to all the 6th chord positions on the E9 neck, however this is not really what I'm referring to. I'm not as interested in the classic western swing (bob wills style 6th sound which I find quite well on E9 anyways), I feel like that is almost an entirely different usage of C6 than playing bebop, etc..

Long story short I would like to get a D10, but as a younger guy with not much disposable income and being a lefty it's very difficult. Just wondering if its even worth starting to save...

Thanks for any Info

Best

Dan

[Paul Sutherland]

Much of the C6th single note playing is done without using pedals or levers. You could consider picking up a 6 or 8 string lap steel to explore the tuning.

Or, you could try converting your current guitar to a universal 10 string. You would have to leave off the bottom two string of the full Uni 12. Just add 4 floor pedals.

But I'd start saving my pennies for a D-10 or universal 12. Meanwhile keep doing what you're doing on E9.

[Rick Abbott]

Lowering your 4 and 8, and remaining in that mode, will show you an approximation of B6 similar to the C6 of a D10. NOT an exact representation. Hold the knee lever and play the middle strings, knowing that open is B6, and let your ears show you where to go. Maybe a Universal is in your future. Or, even better, look into a guitar tuned to Reese Anderson's Bb6 Universal tuning. It's designed for a guy like you, I think. Good to see a younger player with such questions! Keep asking.

[Chris Reesor]

Daniel, you have a decent lefty guitar built by a man who is still in the business. You are only one pedal and some rerodding away from Buddy Emmons' C6 copedent which in its own way is just as brilliant as the E9 tuning. E9 has its changes doing the same thing in different octaves, creating a chord inversion machine which is superb for diatonic music. Yes, you can play jazz on E9, but the extra range and asymmetric changes of C6 make for more readily accessible altered and extended chords. Definitely the right tool for the job if you want to play jazz.
So if I were in your shoes, I'd probably spend the money on that extra pedal and some professional help setting your Fessy up for C6 (or B6).
In the meantime, lower your E's and have a bash at B6. Lower strings 9 and 2 to C# too if you have that change.
Last, but not least, enjoy this amazing musical challenge.

[Bob Hoffnar]

For the type of playing you are talking about the E9 is a very cool tuning. The C6 is great also but I find myself on the E neck more often than not playing with more contemporary type jazz players. Most of the neck is In a whole tone tuning already and the basic E 9 set up is a natural for quartal voicings.

The main thing about the C neck tuning is that the pedals and levers are there for altered tones and don’t move in a generally parallel diatonic way like the E neck does.

[Art Beard]

IT's soo refreshing to hear from a young picker who is starting to understand the uses of the E 9th neck.
i feel true joy for you. You are the future of our wonderful instrument. You will find its use in many different styles of music. Great Luck to you !!
Happy Trails, Yours Art
Crazy Arizona Art - CAA

[Jeff Harbour]

I have another alternative if you wish to test the C6 non-pedal tuning. When I am using only an S-10 E9, I occasionally retune strings 3-10 as G-E-C-A-G-E-C-A, respectively (from G#-E-B-G#-F#-E-D-B). They are all either a half or whole-step away, the E9 string gauges work fine. That gives you the entire tuning that is most common on 8-string C6 non-pedal guitars. You could maybe even rig up a couple pedals or levers to accomplish this as well (I think Mike Sigler has something similar). To me that is much better than simply lowering the E's on a S-10, which gives you only a broken-up incomplete B6.

Also, you can lower the 2nd string (D#-D) as well to try the 'D on top' option to see which you prefer. It's amazing what you can play without pedals if you have the theoretical knowledge to figure it out.

[Daniel Buller]

Thanks for the different responses from everybody:

Bob Hoffnar: I totally agree with you about the quartal harmony available in E9. I would say this is more synomymous with modern jazz as opposed to bebop and the likes of players like Chris Potter(Sax), Pat Metheny, Joe Dioro, just to name a few. This list could go on... Either way it's a very convenient and useful approach on E9

Regarding many of the other posts related to C6 thanks for the advice! I already play 6 string lap steel in C6 and think without the use of pedals it is a good tuning, but for me certainly not better than E9 with the advandtange of having pedals and levers. I gravitate towards highly chromatic lines with some larger intervals thrown in to help break things up. This is in the school of "octave displacement" that you here on so many bebop recordings. For example playing a line that highlights the 3rd and b9 of a dominant chord, but playing one of the tones an octave lower or higher than you might anticipate.

I can achieve this to some degree on C6 lap steel with open strings. I do it using open strings when they fit a specific tone in a line to help break up the picking and add more fluidity. This could be a diatonic note or a non diatonic not to add chromaticism between scale tones depending on the situation...

Anyways I think my question was answered by you guys eluding to the fact that altered tones are more conveniently accessed from the pedals and levers on C6. This is obviously a large part of Jazz harmony and a large part of forming convincing lines over dominant chords functioning in a variety of different ways.

I've found ways to do it on E9, but it seems pretty clumsy at times.

Last question and I think I will have all the info I need:

How hard is it to add a back neck to an SD10, and who would you reccomend contacting to do this kind of work(im not the most mechanically inclined). I bought my guitar used and it is on a double cabinet which I failed to mention prior. It may have originally even been a D10 because there is a hole in the endplate... For whatever reason I am drawn more to a D10 than a UNI (not that I'd be opposed to trying one). I have about 1500$ I've been saving which for me is a lot but I'd be willing to spend to get another neck added.

I really just can't fathom spending nearly $5,000 on a new D10, and since I'm lefty I haven't seen any used for less...

[Jeff Harbour]

Find a good used D-10. I wouldn't guess that adding a neck would be a more practical choice. $1500 would be tricky, but great if you were able to sell the SD-10. You would have plenty to pick from then, but you might be steel-less for a time.

[John Swain]

Check Randy Beaver's videos. He plays great lines and voices jazz chords on an almost stock E9. Mike Scaggs posted some videos of Randy!

[Bob Tuttle]

Daniel, why not contact Jerry Fessenden about adding the other neck.

[Asa Brosius]

The tonal range of the back neck is nice- I bet you'd appreciate it for your purposes, and if you want to comp keys-style chords, it offers more complex chord possibilities under the bar in the same position. For me, the heads from Scrapple from the Apple and Donna Lee are physically easier on the front neck. When I get precious about the right intervals being in the same position, its important to remember that at some level one string and a bar is enough.
Considering your interests, were I you, I'd chase down a lefty U12.

[Jeff Harbour]

Forgive me... I forgot to factor in the reverse-handed setup. With that being the case, and with the builder still being in business, a conversion may be a better option after all.

Also, I'm not sure about Fessenden's process, but I know that some builders standardize their components regardless of the end result. So, despite the endplate cut-out, it may have always been an SD-10.

[Larry Bressington]

What about converting what you have now to a standard C6 neck and let the E9 go... you could buy a couple more pedals and linkage and have single 10 4x5 in C6. You could put a set of C6 strings on it, re rod a few levers and pedals that you have to get you started.
Love you’re posts!

[Franklin]

I think of the C6th as three tunings.

Its also A-7th tuning using the 8th string as the root.

Its also F maj 9th when the 9th string is used as the root... I can play multiple inversions of the 1 , 4 and 6 minor chords without pedals or moving the bar.

By seeing the tuning as three separate tunings a world of possibilities unlock.

[Steve Sycamore]

The problem with the E9 for Bebop and traditional Jazz is that the E9 is optimized for playing I, IV and V diatonic chord changes where you can optionally add a flat 7th tone. So it seems difficult to play fluid II V I sequences, either chordal (with substitutions) or melodically. I very often want to play something related to a diminished arpeggio over the V chord for example to highlight the sweetest sounding altered tones.

C6 has some large advantages and more possibilities for dealing with more complex sequences. But there I miss the straightforward use of something like the A and B pedals. It may be time to consider entirely rethinking how the guitar should work and develop a new tuning system.

[Jim Cohen]

C6 has some large advantages and more possibilities for dealing with more complex sequences. But there I miss the straightforward use of something like the A and B pedals. It may be time to consider entirely rethinking how the guitar should work and develop a new tuning system.

I think that's why they invented the Universal tuning...

[Earnest Bovine]

How hard is it to add a back neck to an SD10,

Probably not a good idea.

[Earnest Bovine]

altered tones are more conveniently accessed from the pedals and levers on C6.

Not if you think of E9 tuning as Bb alt tuning.

I like nice interesting chords, and I like E9.

[Fred Treece]

altered tones are more conveniently accessed from the pedals and levers on C6.

Not if you think of E9 tuning as Bb alt tuning.

I like nice interesting chords, and I like E9.

Exactly! If you think of all the 7th, 9th, and 13th voicings on E9 as inversions of alt-dominant chords, you are in da bebop bidness... The arpeggios and single-note chromaticisms are all there. I can’t play them yet, but the race is on

And +1 with everyone who is encouraged by a young person’s interest in music. It shouldn’t be all that shocking though. I knew monstrous players and played alongside them in my 20’s, and obviously the greats we knew of back then who came before us were making names for themselves in their youth. Something tells me the OP is going to be dangerous, if not already so....

[Christopher Woitach]

I’ve spent the last 30+ years as a professional jazz guitarist, so I’m your shoes, although right handed. The ability to easily make modern quartal and quintal chords, plus the standard tertiary type jazz chords, is why I ended up with Bb6 Universal. I can get all of that on one neck, plus having the open tuning a 6th based tuning with both the high 5th and the reentrant 9th on top makes it best suited for the way I think I about jazz, which is 90% of what I play on pedal steel.

[Bruce Derr]

Dan, another option that might make sense for you would be to add some pedals to convert your Fess into a U10. That would spare you the search for another lefty guitar and would be well within your budget.

You haven't mentioned craving the extended low end E9 lacks. (Most uni 10 tunings would give you a little more range on the bottom anyway.)

You could then move to a U12 later if the opportunity and desire arises.

[Jay Jessup]

Check Randy Beaver's videos. He plays great lines and voices jazz chords on an almost stock E9. Mike Scaggs posted some videos of Randy!

Given that you play lefty and that you don't have unlimited funds I'd say stick with E9. There's more stuff on there than I think the average player realizes and Randy is good example of that. It sounds like you already have the musical knowledge to find everything, your challenge will be in the right hand playing the notes you want without accidently hitting the neighboring strings.
Good luck whichever way you decide to go.

[Jim Hoke]

Notes are notes, whether you find them on the E or the C neck. Two reasons (okay, three or four) why you should stay where you are on one neck: You've already invested a lot of time, thought and practice in doing it all on the one neck. Also, consider the time factor - if you start practicing on a second neck, it's time away from the first neck and your efforts on both will be less than the effort you'd make on just the one. Also - a double neck is a lot heavier to lug around. Your back will appreciate sticking w/ the single-neck. Your comment on the chord voicing thing was right on - if you know the few key notes in voicings (3rd, 7th, 9th, etc.) you're doing it like a jazz piano player. They don't play a lot of notes in the left hand. PLUS - one thing I prefer about the E neck over the C neck, chord-wise, is how many small intervals there are w/ all the strings that are a second away. This makes it easier to get cluster groupings, like a major or minor second and a fourth, fifth or sixth. Of course, C neck players have all kinds of changes to get those chords too....

[robert kramer]

I found a very useful method of learning standards that could apply to both your C-6th and/or E9th studies: “Music Notes – Sheet Music Anywhere.” Not only can you buy, download, save and print out a PDF of the sheet music – there is also a free app that plays back the melody and chords of song while highlighting the notes and the chords as they progress. I’ve had been struggling with “Blues in the Night” from the Sinatra record w/ Nelson Riddle. I finally paid for and downloaded the “Music Notes” sheet music and the app to find out it was the exact Nelson Riddle arrangement including the introduction.

The app allows you to change keys and also loop selected measures. There is a vast selection of sheet music from all years and styles. They have most of the songs on my "to learn" list. They have an app for Windows, Mac and iOS. An iPad can fit on your music stand. The price ranges from $3.50 - $5.50 - a steal considering the time you can save in the shed.

https://www.musicnotes.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mlmTVCwg54