What the heck is Cabinet Drop?

Josh Watt · Post by **Josh Watt** » 3 Aug 2005 12:08 pm

I've been wonderingfor awhile, now. What is Cabinet drop?

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 3 Aug 2005 12:12 pm

Josh, one way is when you stomp pedals,and the cabinet bends.another way is taking it out of the case,and woops it slips to the floor!!! sorry just couldn't resist!!!
farris

Post by **Joey Ace** » 3 Aug 2005 12:39 pm

Listen to your open E strings, no pedals.

Press the A&B pedals and hear a slight difference.

That's cabinet drop. In a perfect world, the AB pedals would not affect the E strings.

See http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum6/HTML/003532.html for an extreme picture. It's a joke, but the concept is real.

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 3 Aug 2005 3:06 pm

I don't know what cabinet drop is.... I play a Carter! (:>)>=[

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
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Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 3 Aug 2005 3:21 pm

The most dramatic example is the largest unwound string on E9, either the 5th or 6th.

If you use an unwound 6th, tune it to G# straight up on a tuner. Press the A pedal down firmly and check the G# note. On most guitars, it will drop substantially.

If you use a wound 6th, do the same with the 5th string and press the B pedal.

What Joey suggests is one measure of cabinet drop, but I've found the unwound G# often drops 2x - 3x as much as the 4th -- sometimes as much as 16 cents. Different guitars have different degrees of cabinet drop and some players actually tune to minimize the effects of cab drop.

Do a Forum search. You'll find more than you ever wanted to know. (it's always a good idea to search before posting a new topic -- you'll be surprised how many topics we've beaten to death over the years)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Aug 2005 3:52 pm

When you press a pedal to raise a string, there is more tension on the cabinet and on the bridge axle. This added tension results in a very slight detuning of the strings that weren't raised by the pedal.

Even though it's not just the cabinet that causes the effect, the name "cabinet drop" has been universally adopted into the lexicon of steel guitarists.

Cabinet drop wasn't much of an issue until people started seeing it on the needles of their electronic tuners in the 1970's. It's barely audible on most steel guitars.

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John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 3 Aug 2005 4:39 pm

David, you had better stick a tuner on your Carter and see the cabinet drop. Bud Carter told me that he has tried a lot of different materials for the cabinets, but the cabinet drop is still there. I'd say that's straight from the horses mouth. AND Carter is a well built guitar.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 3 Aug 2005 4:47 pm

2% on my Carter, 4% on my Emmons.

Some people use compensators or other devices to offset it. Most just learn to play in tune by bar technique.

JW Day · Post by **JW Day** » 3 Aug 2005 5:01 pm

I've been an Emmons owner for over thirty years and won't change.but after checking it on a petersen turner I did notice A slight drop. I have a friend that owns A Derby. We checked it on the same meter. It didn't show any drop. He says that the center rail takes care of the problem. Can some of you
derby folks enlighten we non-Derby fellows on this subject

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 3 Aug 2005 5:09 pm

I sort of bought into the axle component of cabinet drop until I just pressed down on the middle of my instrument. They all drop (Zum, Emmons p/p, Carter, Sho-Bud Pro III). There can also be cabinet rise when you hit a lower-lever. If you tune your pedals and knee stops to the open strings in each chord, it accomodates for the drop or rise, at least for those chords. The whole chord might be slightly flat or sharp, but your bar and ear will automatically compensate for that. However, at the nut, things can get far enough off to notice. This is actually one of the most persuasive arguments for tuning everything straight up to a meter. Things will sound better for open string work at the nut - but the fretted chords with the bar can sound sweeter if cabinet drop is accounted for in tuning - you can't have everything. I agree with b0b that people probably began to focus on the problem and understand the extent of it more when everyone started using chromatic meters. But I think, even before then, people recognized there were some intonation problems and wrestled with them.

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 3 Aug 2005 7:55 pm

My Excel Superb S10 6+4 has negligible cabinet drop. It is well engineered and braced to prevent flexing of the body, and the changer doesn't appear to cause a drop in any of the strings when pedals are pressed. I'm totally happy with it. My guess is that Bill Stafford would say the same with regard to his 14-string Excel.

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John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 3 Aug 2005 11:12 pm

If you listen to your 2nd. neck string #6 as you press the pedal nearest the center of the body, you’ll probably notice the cabinet~drop the most! Cabinet~Drop has never been a major concern for me!

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“Big John” Bechtel
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richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 3 Aug 2005 11:57 pm

If a player doesn't know how to tune the guitar to accomodate the cabinet drop, he will be out of tune, totally negating any highbrow hoo-haa controversy about Just Intonation versus Equal Temperament tuning.
R B

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 4 Aug 2005 1:15 am

Definitely one of the wrenches in the ET versus JI tuning debate. I agree with b0b that other factors, such as torsion on the changer axle, have become known as "cabinet drop". However, I disagree that it is so slight that it wasn't noticed before the advent of electronic tuners. On many guitars, you can hear obvious "cabinet drop" artifacts by ear. I'm certain that some players must have heard it, and adjusted for it. (Any input from the "pre-tuner" crowd here?)
Personally, I think "cabinet drop" contributed to some of the out-of-tuneness that characterized, and possibly stigmatized, some earlier steel tracks as being "whiny" and out of tune.

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Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Aug 2005 2:18 am

Cabinet drop: finally, a use for JI.
(JUST kidding!)

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 4 Aug 2005 2:27 am

Very few people can hear a variation of less than 2 cents. If your meter shows it but you can't hear it is it really a problem? The resulting assumption is that if you minimize the cabinet drop to the point that it is not audible then it's not going to cause you any problems.

Yes, there are several things that cause this; however, good playing technique can overcome a lot of the "problems" of "cabinet drop".

If you're starting out, work on your playing technique and intonation. It's far more important than the mechanics.

Also, you'll find that when you're playing in a band with 3-5 other people who can typically can barely tune their own instruments, let alone tune to each other, cabinet drop is the least of your worries. :0[This message was edited by John Fabian on 04 August 2005 at 03:32 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Aug 2005 4:43 am

Charlie
NOT just kidding, actually

I have had guitars where the 1st and 7th strings would detune enough due to cabinet drop they would not need compensators to tune JI. I'd just tune the F# to match the B on 5 with harmonics. When the A pedal was depressed the F# would go down almost 8 cents and would be in tune with the C#.

As you know the closer you tune to ET the less you will need the compensator to tweak the F# down to match the C#.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Aug 2005 5:13 am

Got the gist from Reese, and a clue from Buddy. If it drops to JI, it's still going to be ok.

Tampering is good.

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 4 Aug 2005 5:24 am

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 4 Aug 2005 6:27 am

If cabinet drop were to be eliminated (as in reduced by one or two orders of magnitude), then someone would just apply a more accurate measuring instrument to prove that it still exists.
With mother nature as our adversary "We Just Can't Have Nothin' Nice Around Here!"

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 5 Aug 2005 10:14 am

Cabinet drop is an extra option offered by most steel guitars. Basically it is set to detune strings 4 and 8 approximately 10 cents, when pedals A and B are pressed. That way you can get an extra minor chord(with the 4&8 strings) Hope this helps!

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Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 5 Aug 2005 10:44 am

If there's any cabinet drop on my 04' D-10 Carter, then I sure hadn't noticed it. Best playing and sounding guitar I've ever had. Matter of fact, my old 70's model MSA Classic that I use as a second guitar hadn't caused me any problems since I got it readjusted and set the way I like to play it. Of course, it's so heavy, nothing can move. Ha! Thank the good Lord for dollies.

Josh Watt · Post by **Josh Watt** » 5 Aug 2005 11:22 am

Well, one thing's for sure: Steel guitar's much more complex than standard. If you push on one string and it knocks others out on a regular acoustic, you either junk it, or get it fixed.

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 5 Aug 2005 3:44 pm

I hadn't checked my Mullen with a tuner for cabinet drop, I'm sure there's a little there, but my ears ain't good enough to pick it up. You have to have VERY good ears to hear a small amount of cabinet drop. You guys that can hear it, I envy your abillity to hear that well.

Terry

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Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 8 Aug 2005 4:21 am

On my S-10 Sierra, I used a series of springs beneath on the cranks. No problem with D-10 Artist. On some pedals, I have multiple raises/lowers - as many as 5 strings on one pedal/lever. ---j---