Newbie Tone Question

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 4 Jul 2005 2:32 pm

Hi. I've got an old 70's Excel D10. Red formica. I normally play a '55 D8 Stringmaster, but I wanted to get the pedal steel thing going.
My problem is I can't get any kind of decent tone out of the Excel. It sounds OK not plugged in, nothing weird about the tone.

The pickups are old emmons style single coils about 22K resistance. The mechanics are all functional (no cabinet drop, pedals work etc.) but I get a tone that seems really muffled and lacks character. It does have one or two rattly rollers, but I don't think that is the problem. (Side question - is shim stock the way to fix those?)

I can't find an eq setting that works. Plugged into a tube amp it sounds like a wah wah stuck on mid, and plugged into my solid state 2x12 Yamaha (great clean tone for guitar), I still can't EQ out that muffled sound.
I have moved the parametric EQ up and down, peaked and notched, and nothing makes it sound right.
I can get enough treble to hurt, but it still doesn't sound right. I plugged in my Supro lap steel just to check as a reference, and it sounds fine on the same amp settings.
Open and transparent.

My question: Am I just spoiled by learning on a 55 Fender and this is the way this pedal steel is supposed to sound?
Is there a pickup set anyone can recommend that will come closer to the transparent open sound that my Supro lap and my Fender stringmaster get?

I went through the electronics and there doesn't seem to be a problem. I can turn the tone capacitor all the way off with a switch and the muffled mid-peaky quality won't go away.

Any suggestions will be appreciated. (I know somebody will say to just go buy a certain brand of steel instead, but I would like to get as much tone out of the one I've got before I get that radical. $$$ issue.)
Thanks for any input you all can provide.
-Paul Arntson

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 4 Jul 2005 2:44 pm

Have a look in the Electronics section and check the archives. There's a load of advice that will help.
Cheers, Arch.

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 4 Jul 2005 7:15 pm

I think I figured out what is doing it. The pickups are wound with so many turns that they hold the treble in. They are wound to about 22K. I put a buffer pedal on it and it helped a lot.

My question now becomes: Should I peel some windings off to about 18K and see what it does?
Or should I just get the brightest pickup set I can?
Next question: What is the brightest single coil pickup?
Or: What is the best buffer box to put between the pickups and the rest of the system?

THanks all for any responses.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 4 Jul 2005 8:47 pm

No pedalsteel is going to sound as cool as a Stringmaster or have the honk of a Supro. Pedalsteels always seem to have something missing if you compare them to lap steels. Before you start screwing around with the Excel make sure you check out some other pro level pedalsteels like an Emmons PP or Franklin so you have something more in the ballpark to compare your Excel with. It might be a waste of time messing around with pickups and all that.

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Bob
My Website

Clyde Lane · Post by **Clyde Lane** » 4 Jul 2005 8:51 pm

For the rollers a drop of light oil will usually stop the rattle.

Clyde

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 4 Jul 2005 9:06 pm

Check that you have your volume pedal correctly connected.
Plugging it in backwards will make the steel sound muffled.
R B

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 4 Jul 2005 10:37 pm

Actually, 22k is a bit of a dark sounding wind on those pickups, particularly if you are using a pot volume pedal with no buffering or boosting of the signal. I believe Jerry Wallace typically winds his highly successful Truetone pickups to 18.5k for E9 and 19.5k for C6. Non-pedal steels have a much brighter wind, and you have gotten use to that. If Emmons push/pulls and Franklins are not common in your area, try any modern pedal steel (Sierra, Carter, Zum, Fessenden, Mullen, GFI, MSA) to see if they sound better than your guitar. Notice what pickups they have.

You don't necessarily need a stand alone buffer. The Hilton volume pedal buffers and boosts the signal. These volume pedals brighten up the sound quite a bit.

Finally, be sure the pickup is the proper distance from the strings. The width of one quarter is about right for a covered pickup, and two quarter widths is about right for a bare pickup.

Garth Highsmith · Post by **Garth Highsmith** » 4 Jul 2005 11:19 pm

.[This message was edited by Garth Highsmith on 09 January 2006 at 08:42 PM.]

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 5 Jul 2005 2:51 am

I have an old Fender steel pickup which measures 6.7 kohms - no wonder if 22k sounds a bit muffled in comparison.

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´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ´74 Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Peavey Nashville 1000

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 5 Jul 2005 10:14 am

Thanks for the cool voice of reason, Bob.

I sent you an email Garth, thanks.

Appreciate all this great advice.
I will try the light oil on the rollers, Clyde, thanks.

Do you suppose there is actually a way to get that brash lapsteel sound in a pedal steel?

Thanks
- Paul[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 05 July 2005 at 11:20 AM.]

Dillon Jackson · Post by **Dillon Jackson** » 5 Jul 2005 10:43 am

I have a Zum U12 and a Nashville 1000; if you want to check either guitar or amp out. Located on Lake Union. Actually I have been wondering for some time how many forum members are from the Seattle area. It sure ain't Texas.

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Dillon Jackson
abiband.com
ZUM U-12; NV-1000

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 5 Jul 2005 10:54 am

Paul,
In my experience I found that you can get a usable brash sound out of a great pedalsteel. An old Emmons comes the closest to me with Franklins right behind. But It still is not the same thing. I tried to play a trad Hawaiian gig on my pedalsteel but it just didn't cut it compared to my old bakelite rickenbacher. Also nothing gets that big rude sound like one of those crappy old Supros with the string through pickups. Get in touch with Dan Tyack over in Seattle. He knows what he is doing with this sort of thing more than just about anybody.

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Bob
My Website

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 5 Jul 2005 1:41 pm

I sent you an email, Dillon.

You know, as I read all your advice, I am thinking maybe I was just spoiled by the lapsteels. As I picked the Excel today without listening to the fender beforehand, it actually has kind of a rich, albeit totally different, quality that is maybe OK. More brightness would definitely be good, but I appreciate everybody's advice. I sure won't start unwinding pickups until I get some more tones in my ears.
Maybe Rick Aiello and Jason Lollar can come up with a retro string-thru design that fits a narrow-mount slot ???
Bob, I agree that Dan has the Supro tone thing nailed. I've listened to his records, but I haven't been able to catch him around town yet.

-paul

Brian Wetzstein · Post by **Brian Wetzstein** » 15 Jul 2005 10:31 am

Hi Paul!
I have a Sho-Bud Pro I and a Webb amp that you are welcome to try. I live in Gold Bar now, not too far from Bothell.
Also, I am playing at the Mars Bar on Eastlake in Seattle(near the Capitol Hill ramp) on Thursday July 28th.
I hope we can meet sometime.
Brian

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 15 Jul 2005 11:12 am

Do you suppose there is actually a way to get that brash lapsteel sound in a pedal steel?

Oh yeah, Paul, the old ShoBuds certainly can do it if you turn it up and really lay into it. I use it for blues stuff all the time, very nasty if necessary.

I'm not so near to you as the Seattle guys but I've got tons of EQ's, etc. here, if you're ever down PDX way bring your guitar and give me a shout.

Best -- dg

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 15 Jul 2005 11:21 am

I think I would install some new pick ups. Probably E-66's or XR-16's to start with. Then try a Nashville 112,1000 or 400 and you'll probably hear a major difference. Just my .02 worth of info.

Billy Woo · Post by **Billy Woo** » 15 Jul 2005 12:28 pm

You also might wanna test drive Brad Sarno's "Black Box" as your buffer between the pick-ups, do a search on his product and you'll be surprised how many folks like the new sound and tone they want..

Bronco Billy
Zumsteel U-12

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Jul 2005 1:16 pm

...but I've got tons of EQ's...

You're exactly right, Dave. With the right equalizer, you can make most any solid body guitar sound like most any other solid body guitar.

Nothing is more disappointing to me in amp design today than the lack of equalization that most every amp made nowadays provides. In short, they're anemic and terribly limited. "Voicing" is something that the player should be able to do with his amp controls, rather than letting some engineer at the factory design (hard-wire) it into the circuitry.

"Well, ______ gives you a mid-shift control, and ______ gives you a mid-slope control."

Big friggin' deal.

Suppose I want to "shift" the highs and lows as well?

Without a good equalizer...you can't do it.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 15 Jul 2005 11:12 pm

My best sounds are coming from both my Fender T–8 Custom - wound at approx. 11,000 with my Twin Re-Issue Custom™ set at Treble-4, Middle-8, Bass-7 and my Derby with Geo. L. 10–1 wound about 19,500 and the same Amp. set at Treble-5, Middle 8, Bass-7. Sweet~Sounds! IMHO

BTW: Reverb-4 & Delay approx. 225ms.
------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 16 July 2005 at 07:13 PM.]

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 17 Jul 2005 6:07 pm

Thanks everybody for all the advice.
After listening to Garth's Sho-Bud today, I think the way I am going to go is to get some TrueTones and put them in there. They have a much better tone for what I want.
THis forum is the best!!

-Paul

Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 17 Jul 2005 7:40 pm

SPEAKING OF PICKUPS, I AM GETTING READY TO REPLACE 8 PICKUPS ON AN OLD 26 IN SCALE FENDER STRINGMASTER...4 X 8 ... CAN SOMEONE INFORM ME WHAT THE ORIGINAL DC RESISTANCE , MEASURED IN OHMS SHOULD BE??? WOULD LIKE TO MAKE ORIGINAL
AS POSSABLE, OR BETTER IF BOSSABLE.. I HAVENT STARTED TO WIND THE PICKUPS YET, TRYING TO GATHER INFORMATION, ANY AND ALL WILL BE APPRECIATED......THANKS ,,,,,,JENNINGS

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 17 Jul 2005 10:51 pm

Jennings,
You can get a big pile of money for those original Fender pickups. Do not mess with them. I've had rock star guys offer me hundreds of dollars per pickup for the pickups out of my stringmaster. It doesn't matter how they sound as long as they are in original condition. The rock guys into vintage stuff are nuts and evedently stringmaster pickups are good for something they want really bad.

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Bob
My Website

Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 21 Jul 2005 7:54 pm

THANKS, BUT THE GUITAR IS MISSING 4 PICKUPS.
MUST BUILD 4 FROM SCRATCH.. DONT KNOW IF OUTHERS ARE GOOD OR NOT,,, DONT HAVE ANY SPECKS
ON THE OLD ONES, NEED SOME INFO.....THIS GUITAR HAS 8 PICKUPS AND THE MISSING ONE ARE THE FRONT ONES,,,[NECK] POSITION....ANY ONE CAN HELP ME...??????????????? THANKS ,, JWNNINGS....

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 21 Jul 2005 11:03 pm

Hi Jennings,
You can buy exact replacements from Jason Lollar if you want. Also, Stewart MacDonald's sells all the parts you need to build replacements. You would have to cut the fishpaper and wind your own pickups, but I bet it would work fine. You can get an idea of how many winds to put on by measuring the resistance of one of the remaining good ones. Probably around 10-12Kilo ohms? I think the pairs are magnetized opposite and wound opposite so they act like humbuckers (at least that's what I read.)
Good luck on that.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 24 Jul 2005 12:03 am

I share that frustration, Donny, it took me years to find an off-the-shelf amp that could begin to approach the minimum EQ that I wanted.

I used 1/3 octave EQ for a while, then a Furman 3-band fully parametric unit, then an Audio Arts 4-band parametric (which I still record with). The old Randall Steel Man 500 even has HI and LO EQ for the reverb return.

I don't see much of the Randalls and had completely forgotten about them until I stumbled across this one. I still ended up using the AA parametric and an audio test rig to find "the sound" with it, but since them I'm home, mamma!.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 24 July 2005 at 01:06 AM.]