pedal/lever position and ankle rolling

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

My MSA is constructed with the LKL lever directly in line with the C pedal (the LKR is in between 5 and 6). Unless I'm playing barefoot or in socks, I can't press th A pedal alone, or roll from the A to AB to B. No matter what I've tried, when I press A, B gets pressed as well.

Does anyone else have a similar setup, and if so how do you work around it? Is it another setup adjustment of some kind?

Thanks -

Jim

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"No chops but great tone"

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Jim, the rolling of the ankle to press any pedal just comes with practice. (Ideally, this is done without moving the knee from side to side.) That is, unless you have some physiological reason that this movement is difficult for you. Changing the height of the "B" pedal may make the movement easier.

Also, knee levers can be moved to make them more comfortable. (Many players with the Emmons setup find the levers for the left knee are mounted too far to the right.)

Winston Street · From: Laurel, Mississippi, USA

Jim you might be able to adjust the way you knee levers fit you knees by adjusting the little short pull/push rods a little. Doesn't take much to make them move a lot one way or the other. I play left handed but I have my RKR which is your LKL set up right above the B pedal and my RKL is above the 4th pedal.. I don't think there is any set way to set the knee's up.. Its just what is comfortable to you.. Donny is right. Sometimes raising the B pedal makes it easier to roll on and off of the a and b without hitting the other.. I try and keep the tops of my pedals level when they're at rest and when I press them. I still have trouble with it when I get lazy about what I'm doing.

Just takes time and practice.
Winston

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

It will help a bit if you raise the "A" pedal so that it is higher than the "B" and "C" pedals.

Lee, from South Texas

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

If ever there were an appropriate source for the saying "no pain, no gain", it's this anatomically difficult (but not impossible) learned move...

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I don't see any way to move the LKL on this guitar - it's attached directly to one of the large rods that run across the guitar. It would require adding a new rod of that type or something - just not practical.

I did find that raising the A pedal helped quite a bit. Raising the B lever made it worse. I'm learning that the levers don't need to all be at the same level - it looks nice that way but may not be as playable.

Still (and I noticed another thread with a similar complaint) it doesn't seem to make any sense at all to have the LKL in this spot It would be perfect, though, for the LKR lever and LKL would be ideal even with the A pedal. Then the instrument could be played without any discomfort or twisting motions.

So what's the reason somebody would put the knee levers where they get in the way/make common moves difficult? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 11 July 2005 at 07:39 PM.]

Bill Myrick · From: Pea Ridge, Ar. (deceased)

Sometimes trying differant shoes or boots helps too ?? I have problems if the soles are too soft.

Buck Dilly · From: Branchville, NJ, USA * R.I.P.

I agree with Bill that shoes are essential. I used to play in boots, and casual dress shoes are better. Like Deer Stags. These have rubber soles and are better for steel.

Winston Street · From: Laurel, Mississippi, USA

Jim, you should have extra holes already drilled in the guitar for extra rods. This will take about an hour to do or a little longer. Just take the back aluminum plate off the guitar (if it has one), loosen the belcranks that are on the cross shaft, loosen the belcrank that the pedal is attached to and pull the rod out of the guitar and move it over into another hole. You have to thread your belcranks back on it as you are inserting it in the hole you want. You'll have to probably replace the pull rods though because they may not be long enough to reach the belcranks once you move the knee lever. An alternative is to loosen the belcrank that the KL is mounted on and twist it to your left to where you want it and then re-tighten the belcrank. This is kinda sloppy, but it will allow you to move your leg to where you want it without engaging the knee lever and you won't have to change the pull rods. Moving the LR lever will be a horse of a different color. If you can, email me some pictures of the undercarriage of you guitar..
Winston

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Well, it l©©ks like it has finally happened! Either PSG~Builders have gone bizzerk and have started throwing guitars together in any fashion that fits their fancy or all of a sudden many “pickers” have become painfully handycapped! _ _ Maybe that's the reason for the resurgence of Non-Pedal Steels!

Just kidding, but; it is curious!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Before trying to physically remount the knee levers in different places, I would spend some more time with adjusting your pedal heights. This takes some time to get them perfect. Also, where is the center of your body lined up with the guitar? You may be sitting to far to the right (or left) for your guitar.

The left knee left on my Carter is between the B & C pedals. This statement was just for reference.

It would be interesting to know from the manufacturers if they have different locations for the levers if they are building a "Day" setup guitar as opposed to an "Emmons" setup guitar. I would think not.

Lastly, there are some MSA players in your area (Mike Perlowin and John McClung are 2 I can think of right now) that I think you should contact and ask them about the placement of the levers on their guitars. They would both be great to have in your circle of friends.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Mike's pretty far out of my area, but John has sent me a note and we'll talk about it. I'll send pics to Winston as well.

Where the levers (left and right) are now forces me to sit centered at the 12th-13 frets. The right levers are so close together they literally are both in contact with my right leg when static (and my legs aren't big at all). I think I can change the position of the RKL a little bit to provide more room, but it has an odd "hitch" in the middle of the motion - the "free play" part, which is rather tight.

But that LKL contact point is actually 1/2" to the right of center of the C pedal...which doesn't seem correct, even based on any of the positioning, shoes, or other suggestions made.

Seems like a parallel universe thread to the guy with the green guitar.

And it looks to me (having at least a smidgen of mechanical knowledge) that it would take major surgery - a complete dismantling and resetting of several things one crossrod to the left, getting new rods....basically rebuilding the darned thing...to change it. I'm neither up to that challenge nor was I prepared to expend funds for it.

Again, This was shipped as a just serviced, playable instrument. That's what I was looking for - not a project guitar.

Anyway, let me get pics to Winston and John and let the take a peek. amd we'll go on from there. I'll just try to adjust the LKL to a "LK-semi vertical" position for now to get it out of the way, I guess. I have PLENTY to work on adjusting to the string closeness (WAY closer than Dobro) and trying "blocking" (totally foreign and baffling territory to a former flatpicking guitar player).

Thanks guys.

PS - I plead total ignorannce here - but there are different "name" setups apart from copedents? I have no clue what a "Day" or "Emmons" setup is so maybe I'm asking the wrong questions? Do I need to know what setup I have?

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 12 July 2005 at 07:54 PM.]

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Hey Jim, despair not!

My Mullen LKL would be right in line with pedal B if hanging perfectly vertical, but I have it a little to the right with its adjustment set screw, so it really hits midway between pedal B and C. Haven't dragged out the MSA beast, but I think the fit is almost exactly the same.

If there's a crossrod hole to the left of your LKL's current position, changing that is not such a big deal; pop off the back plate, loosen some things, move the crossrod. Only new part you're going to need is a longer pull rod from bell crank to the changer. I probably have spares, at your first lesson we'll spend time fiddling with mechanics and you can have a rod or two if I've got them, I plan no more mods to my MSA, it's retired.

You should be sitting with your navel about fret 14-15, not 12-13, so that should solve some fit problems right there.

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E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Webb amp/Profex II

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"You should be sitting with your navel about fret 14-15, not 12-13, so that should solve some fit problems right there."

Can't because of the RIGHT knee levers. They have me locked in one spot...the adjustment I mentioned would allow me to move *left*...exactly the wrong way.

"If there's a crossrod hole to the left of your LKL's current position,"

The only open hole is all the way at the end of the guitar. I don't thnik that would work, would it?

It seems every solution brings more problems.

I'm really beginning to think I ended up with a mechanized plant stand. This is really frustrating. I've spent another 90 minutes tonight doing nothing but trying to get this instrument working.

Edited to add - attempted to adjust LKLto a more upright position to get it out of the way, but the end of the lever hits the bottom of the guitar (before it gets to the stop) if I move it - it's already set as far laft as it can possibly go.

"Well, it l©©ks like it has finally happened! Either PSG~Builders have gone bizzerk and have started throwing guitars together in any fashion that fits their fancy or all of a sudden many “pickers” have become painfully handycapped!"

That sounded rather sarcastic, but in this case it looks like a pedal steel modder threw something together in my view. Your other comment was a pretty cold shot.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 12 July 2005 at 09:36 PM.]

Winston Street · From: Laurel, Mississippi, USA

Jim, I have looked at the pictures you sent me of your guitar. Plastic Man couldn't play the knee levers as they are set up.. See the email I sent you..

Winston

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

That's what I've been thinking all along. I appreciate the help.

Looks like I simply got an unplayable instrument. Amazing that the guy who last worked on it never told his customer, who is innocent in all this IMO.

I'm the one who's stuck with either disposing of it or having it rebuilt. Fabricating parts (even rods) is out of my league - electronics I know, machine-shop work I'm clueless about.

Sheesh.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I'm waiting to hear from the guys I sent additional pictures to. Then I'll need to get cost estimates on fixing the fouled-up lever installation plus the other broken stuff left by the last guy who worked on it.

Only then can I even play it enough to decide whether or not to keep it or sell it. Right now I can't even tell, and I hate to put it up for sale without it being in prime shape.

So I'm kind of in limbo right now. I may pursue a Fender 400 on eBay - yes, I know it doesn't have all the Nashville bells and whistles and is an ancient design, but I'm not a country player - plus looking at Fender's original tunings, it's identical (except for the key) to a dobro tuning with added 6th's on the 4th and 8th strings.

Heck, I already play dobro, and have for years - I could have that up and running and be playing it in some reasonable fashion in a matter of days.

Maybe I'm trying to reinvent the wheel with this MSA. To keep from any more hassle I'd probably swap someone for a working 400 straight up right now. Obviously, I'm really not quite sure what to do at this point. It's frustrating being completely stalled with a 20 string plant stand and a left hand that still won't let me play guitar again.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Jim,
I was wondering the same thing. There's a thread about it http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/010474.html
that seems to say that it's switching the A and C pedals, if I got it right. There may be some knee changes too.
Scan there.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

That's interesting. I wonder if the MSA can be set up like that? I've only seen steels set up with the A pedal on the left. I guess from what I'm reading poking through different threads that the left-A is the "Emmons" setup and with it and "C" switched is the "Day" setup. I didn't even know there was "Day" setup until a few days ago (OK, I'll also admit I have no idea who "Day" is, so I'll go check that out as well).

Anybody know if I can switch them on the MSA Classic myself, or is it something that requires new parts? It might be worth a try if it'll save me from having the knee levers rebuilt.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Question got lost in other stuff:

Can an MSA Classic D10 be changed to a Day setup without any new parts? i.e. can I just switch the A and C pedal setups?

Thanks - still trying to get this playable.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

You can change any guitar (I think)from an "Emmons" Setup to a "Day" setup without needing extra parts. I know you can do it on an MSA with no problems. The pedals and lever (levers- only if they are on your left knee) that are affected are the A and C pedals (just swith the pulls from one pedal to the other, and the levers that raise and lower the E strings. If they are on your left knee, you would want the lowers on your left knee left, and your raises on left knee right. Some put these changes on the right knee or one on each knee. I personally have the on my left knee. I play the "Day" setup.

The Day setup refers to the tuning that Jimmy Day used. When pedals were first added to the E9th tuning, the A and B pedals were combined on one pedal. Then Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day decided to split them. Jimmy put the B to C# change on pedal 3 whereas Buddy put the changes on pedal 1.

Hope this clears up some of the mystery for you.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 15 July 2005 at 07:19 PM.]

Jeff Watson · From: Anza, CA. USA

Hey Jim I sent you an email.

richard burton · From: Britain

Jim,
A quick way to see if the Day setup suits you, with minimal alteration to the steel, is as follows:

Completely wind out the nylon tuner that raises the 4th string when pedal C is pressed, so that the string does not raise.

You can now use the C pedal as an A pedal, as long as you disregard the 10th string.

PS If you find the Day setup preferable, then the left knee levers would have to be swapped round also.
R B

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Why would the knee levers also need to be switched? From what I've been reading, it really doesn't matter which side they're on - it's just whatever you get used to.

Just trying to save myself from unecessary twiddling.

Thoughts?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Richard - that did it! I ran the test as you suggested and can hit everything with no problem (except for my uncoordination from not having played steel for 10 years..hehehe).

Soo it looks like I'll switch it to the Day setup. Fooling around with it, I see why the knee levers should be switched as well - I'm going to want that "lower" from the B pedal, and with this one it'll have to be on the LKL to reach it.

Cool.

I replied to Jeff, but in the meantime any quick hints on how to make changes at the changer end? I can see the needs at the crossrod end and that's easy enough (if a bit time consuming), but I'm not really sure if I just loosen the strings, back the nuts off all the way and reinsert things in the correct holes to switch things or if there is more involved. Suggestions welcome.

Thanks -

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 16 July 2005 at 09:51 AM.]

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