Photos of my Derby ABC & LKL Details Help

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 4 Jul 2005 11:29 pm

here are (i hope) several pictures of the Derby i won off Ebay that was later given to L. Grren. I wonder if that has anything to do with my issues with the ABC realationship to the LKL?

please look these over and give opinion on standard Derby setup or special, etc.

I was told that the 1st location left of teh A shgould be open. well, on this Derby the ABC are ALL the way to the left.

That's why its been hard for me to release B while maintaining the A pedal.

agree?

oh yea, other photo is myself in the summer of 1969.

thanks for your patience on this mater.
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyunder.JPG
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyunderl.JPG
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyunderlt.JPG
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyunderr.JPG
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbylogo.JPG
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyendplate.JPG
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/billy1969.JPG

Again thanks for the help.

Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA www.grievousangelpro.com [This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 12:30 AM.][This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 12:33 AM.][This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 12:35 AM.][This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 12:36 AM.][This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 12:38 AM.][This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 01:06 AM.][This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 01:08 AM.]

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 5 Jul 2005 4:10 am

It looks like the pedals are in the usual location, pretty much the same as my Emmons and Fessenden. I'd say the levers are too far to the right. Usually, the LKL lever, and it's cross shaft are between the B and C pedals. If it were my guitar, I move the levers to the left, the rods would then be too short, but they could easily be replaced. This isn't really very hard to do, maybe you could find someone nearby to check it out and advise you. It looks like a nice guitar.

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 5 Jul 2005 5:34 am

Billy, I think Bill called it right. The knee levers look to be way over to the right.
Hook

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www.HookMoore.com

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 5 Jul 2005 5:36 am

btw..its a pretty guitar

Hook

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www.HookMoore.com

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 5 Jul 2005 8:06 am

i am visualy lining it up here and the LKL is directly in front of the C not between BC, about 1" more to the right. i am aligning the C floor pedal not the pedal rod to the hinge point of the LKL as i have the LKL lever leaning back left some to help access to AB.

please compare to your PSGs as close as possible. i as told usually its the LKL between BC or may on B + i rememebr it feeling diff also on my ZUMM & Emmons & Sierra.

please NOTE also: there is NO extra pedal cross rod holes to the left of A. i was also told it should be. someone please verify that.

thanks,
Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
www.grievousangelpro.com

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAnge ... yfront.JPG

Graeme Smart · Post by **Graeme Smart** » 5 Jul 2005 8:44 am

Billy--
I have a 2001 Derby SD-10. It came with the ABC pedals in the 2,3,4 positions counting from left. There is a blank pedal spot at position 1. The LKL hangs just a hair to the left of the B pedal. I needed to add a little 'play' to LKL so I could rock from A to B without engaging it. Everything seems to line up about right. I would agree that having ABC in the 1,2,3 positions might pose a problem for me.
grae[This message was edited by Graeme Smart on 05 July 2005 at 09:55 AM.]

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 5 Jul 2005 9:26 am

thanks Graeme,

that's my problem then. I HAVE NO VACCANT HOLE TO THE LEFT OF THE A PEDAL. MY DERBY ABC PEDALS ARE LOCATED IN THE EXTREME LEFT POSITIONS.

that is why i am having trouble releasing the B while holding the A down EVEN after adjusting the LKL and B as most PSG players do.

i have been a week trying to establish if my Derby was standard or not.

IN TALKING TO CHARLIE AND HIS WIFE, THEY ARE CONCERNED I DO NOT LIKE THE DERBY AND THIS IS NEGATIVE FEEDBACK. LET ME SAY THAT I REALLY LIKE THE DERBY. STAYS IN TUNE GREAT, SOUNDS VERY BIG AND STRONG AND OF COURSE IS VERY BEAUTIFUL, SOLID COMPONENTS, BUT A CLEAN UNDER CARRIAGE AT THE SAME TIME.

AGAIN, WHAT I JUST DETEMINED WAS THAT THIS DERBY HAD THE ABC PEDALS IN THE EXTREME LEFT POSITIONS, I.E. NO VACCANT HOLE TO THE LEFT (TUNING KEYS). I WILL MOVE ABC BACK TO PROPER LOCATION (ONE LOCATION TO THE RIGHT) AND IT'LL FIT ME LIKE MY 0LD ZUMM DID AND THE DERBY WOULD HAVE IF NOT MODIFIED. AT LEAST TWO PSG PLAYERS HAVE CONFIRMED THIS ABC LOCATION WITH ME.

thanks to all the help and i report back later on this drama.

Sincerely,
Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA www.grievousangelpro.com
http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG [This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 10:27 AM.][This message was edited by Billy T. Johnson on 05 July 2005 at 10:29 AM.]

Bill Myers · Post by **Bill Myers** » 6 Jul 2005 7:12 am

Billy, The first Carter I bought was set up this way. They call their pedals 0-9 and the standard Carter setup has abc in positions 1,2 and 3. Mine has 9 pedals and the 8 pedal for c6th was split on 8 and 9. The A pedal was in 0 position and it made it very akward. I ended up re-rodding the whole guitar and moving some things so now I have the abc on position 1,2 and 3 and I put the Franklin change on the position 0 pedal. On a Carter it is very easy to move things around this way. I liked it so much, I am getting ready to put a 0 pedal on my other Carter !

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2003 Carter D10, 8x5 Black and 1998 Carter D10 9x5, rack mounted amp and cabinets

[This message was edited by Bill Myers on 06 July 2005 at 08:14 AM.]

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 6 Jul 2005 1:05 pm

Bill,
that is what i plan on doing also. the Franklin move lowers 5E and 6B a full step on position 0 or 1 as may call it.

thanks,
Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DBS10E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 6 Jul 2005 9:05 pm

If you re-position your knee levers and find that they still don't feel right, so you re-position them again etc etc, you will have a steel with lots of holes in it.
To avoid this, make an aluminium plate about 3/16" thick, to fit on the existing knee lever mounting holes in the steel.
Then you can experiment to your hearts content by mounting the lever on the plate, if it ain't right you can move it, without any extra holes in the steel at all.
R B

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 7 Jul 2005 7:51 pm

Billy;
Looking at your pictures, you Derby is definately a slightly older model. As I told you in the E-Mail the current Derbys are assembled with (A)(B)(C) in positions (2)(3)(4), but; to add the Franklin change to your Emmons setup, it rightfully should go in position-(5), which probably can't be done, unless you have a 5th-pedal bushing on the Aprons! If you just added a pedal to position (4) and switched to the Day setup, then the Franklin~change could go in #1-position. But, then your LK's would need to be reversed too!
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site [This message was edited by John Bechtel on 10 July 2005 at 07:20 PM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 7 Jul 2005 9:18 pm

I'll address this problem, ‘one more time’! Just click here and view the ‘current’ Derby Factory~Policy for (3 & 5)!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site [This message was edited by John Bechtel on 10 July 2005 at 07:25 PM.]

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 7 Jul 2005 11:37 pm

hello John,

right, i see the picture. i too will say this one more time (ain't this fun). like I was saying for a week now, my A pedal is in the left most position (0). that is one more position to the LEFT than 'your' picture indicates! Your picture shows a vaccant position to the left (appears to be minus a bushing but has a vaccant hole). my Derby does NOT have a vaccant position to the left, therefore my Derby and yours are different. maybe this makes it clearer. look at your (picture) center brace. notice the available left most hole though the center brace. my Derby does NOT have that hole available in the center brace, therefore my A is in the left most positon, your A is on the 2nd position from the left.

i have never had a PSG with ABC fully to the left, but i understand why some PSG players do and some don't, the player likes it better that way. actually my LKL aligns with the B and NOT aligned with C (looking directly into the LKL and seeing which floor pedal it aligns with the closest). i adjusted the LKL all i can to the left (with improvement but not as I need it) by titling with the set screw and lowered the B as soon as I determined it was uncomfortable on my left ankle. i had to do that with all the PSG i owned previously, as is common practice of course.

also i had several PSG players from this forum say their Derby's (and other steels) WAS the same way as I mine and they said they moved ABC over to the right one more position, leaving the left most position vaccant. this makes releasing B while maintaining A more comortable and a quicker ankle twist for me anyway.

it appears to me that my picture and your picture are different as I stated above.

i know this has to be driving some of the others on this forum nuts and i do appreciate everyone's help and patience. i guess the reason this post(s) went in cirles for long time is that i was trying to get exact detials form other Derby's to compare to mine. i eventually posted pictures of my PSG.

i feel IF i install a 4th floor pedal for the 'Franklin move', it makes sense to put it where my A is now, resulting in a DABC layout.

i had the answer a few days back from details of several players and i have decide on one of several solutions to get it done.

again thanks,

Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DBS10E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 7 Jul 2005 11:49 pm

to John and others:

anyone, is John correct?

why can i NOT install the Franklin 'D' in position 0 and ABC in 1,2,3 with an Emmons setup? my center brace and body has a available position to the extreme left.

what i am missing or is John not seeing my Derby's photo clearly?

if my Derby is a older version, it was never played much as case and steel is mint. was there a Derby change in pedal layout etc?

John and others, thanks for the help.

later,
Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DBS10E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 8 Jul 2005 1:02 am

John does have a point. (on the center brace) between A & B has no vaccant hole, but B & C does, then LKV and LKL fall next to each other, BUT the front/rear apron does have all the holes and/or bushings. the center brace appears to be missing a hole only between A & B.

if curious, email me direct and i'll send photos.

i do wonder now, if this steel was sliced and diced! if so, it was done perfectly and then the old holes, etc. was filled and re-sprayed. OR Charlie made this Derby special. when i talked to him, he did not say it was special.

if its odd adn not cleanly fixed, i'll move to a 1-2 year production wait then sell this Derby (if you know what i mean).

ain't this a blast!

later,

Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DBS10E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 8 Jul 2005 9:55 am

Billy;
I must say, respectfully; my guitar is right and your guitar is wrong! [But, only by today’s Factory Standards] It was probably correct at the time that it was built, but; was eventually found to be impractical to operate in that configuration! I had my guitar to the factory several weeks ago and Charles discovered that in my case, the undercarriage was correct as it is now, but; the original-owner had moved the third pedal over to #1 position on the pedal~bar and mounted the couplings on the other side of each pedal.(Toward the P/U-end) So, anyway, my unndercarriage is and was correct, but; it definately was unplayable with the (A)(B)(C) pedals all the way to the left! [Also, in regards to my picture, there ‘are’ (2)-more bushings in the front apron for a (0)-pedal and another LKL2.] Billy, you ask why not put the Franklin~Change in #0-position? The answer is that the Franklin~Change works in conjunction with the (C)-pedal and in order to use it properly, you would need to use (2)-Feet on the pedals to operate P-1 & P-4 together! That's why (with the Emmons setup) you need them on P-3 & P-4. [Or actually in positions #4 & #5] on a Derby.
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site [This message was edited by John Bechtel on 10 July 2005 at 07:39 PM.]

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 8 Jul 2005 10:09 am

so even though our Derby's are diff, you had the same issue i did, i.e ABC extreme left correct.

you are right, my steel underneath is alittle strange! i have all correct bushing/holes except the center brace is not standard. it was made like this OR someone filled all the old holes in the body and re-sprayed black!

this worries me some now. i may sell this steel, even though beautiful, clean, tunes but mod'ed somehow in the set up. looks perfect though at even a close look. no harm to anyone, but i go back to the ZUMM i liked so much even if a 1-2 year wait. i wonder how much it'll cost to resolve this?

thanks,
Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DBS10E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Jul 2005 10:43 am

Why don't you just move the 1st pedal parts to the 4th pedal slot? This doen't seem like a major, costly problem to me. You might have to buy two pull rods. What's that, $10?

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 8 Jul 2005 11:19 am

well, my Derby's center brace bushing locations (as i call it) will cause issues with the loation of LKL and LKV (i think per John B. that was my plan or either add a 4th Franklin move. then John B. has pointed somethng out to me about my Derby's bushing locations and brace location.

i wish i had a detail of a standard Derby 3+5 S10 E9

thanks,
Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DBS10E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 10 Jul 2005 4:29 pm

Billy;
You do have pictures of a stock/standard SD–10 3 & 5 E9-Setup Derby! {[(MINE!)]} b0b has ‘hit the nail right on the head’! Just remove everything from the #1-position and move the Cross~bar to the #4-position. Then move the 1st.-pedal over to #4-position on the pedal~bar. There are no screws involved in the proceedure on the undercarriage, because; the cross~bars are held in place by both the front and rear aprons. There are no screws to touch. The only screws to move are the two (2) that hold the pedal-bracket onto the pedal~bar. It's a very simple operation to move both the pedal and cross~bar. Then rearrange the bellcranks and re-rod each. You don't even need new pull~rods, because; all you have to do is trim the (2)-pull~rods that you remove from the first-position to fit position #4. Then, if you still want the Franklin~Change, obtain the necessary parts and place that in position #5, where it belongs! Just leave position-(1) “EMPTY,EMPTY, EMPTY”!
Like I illuded to before, moving pedals does not cause holes in the body, to be “filled in and re-painted”. I think at the time your Derby was built, your configuration was the Factory~standard, but; has since been changed to what you see on my guitar built in 2004, for what are now quite obvious reasons! click here
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site[This message was edited by b0b on 10 July 2005 at 07:25 PM.] [This message was edited by John Bechtel on 10 July 2005 at 07:47 PM.] [This message was edited by John Bechtel on 10 July 2005 at 07:54 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 10 Jul 2005 7:00 pm

John, and Billy, from y'all's pictures, I'd say John is right. It sure looks like that center rail is different on Bill's guitar, and won't allow for the movement.
You know, Bill is the one who's looking under his guitar. I don't think he's said anything bad about the Derby company, or even this guitar, other than the pedals being hard to get to. To call this "libel" (that's the way it's spelled, BTW), might be a bit presumptive. I've suggested that Billy bring his guitar to Saluda, and let ol' Charles Reece take a look. A real good man to have on your side!
"Wake up, Mama-
turn your lamp down low..."

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 10 Jul 2005 10:10 pm

Billy,

It looks like if you turn the stop of the vertical knee lever 90 gegrees, you can use the hole in the centerbrace there. On John's guitar its turned and if you would correct it, I think you can put all pedals and knee levers in a comfortable position. http://www.xs4all.nl/~mschout/images/derbyunderl.jpg

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 11 Jul 2005 1:55 am

sincere thanks to the ones who are trying to help in a positve manner. i am very sorry for the BS that has gone down due to these postings.

i also feel, based on your kind comments that my cross brace MAY be diffferent. why is also a good question, so the history will be know. also, why spray painted black and not felt? how rough is the hard rock maple Derby uses? this wood body is very rough and appears to be a 'particle like' texture, but not sure. it is a SN 0106. did Derby change its construction specs earliy on?

it is a beautiful Derby.

DISCLAIMER: Just questions, no discredit to manufacturer intended or emplied.

i will continue with this. thanks to all. please email me directly so others on this forum will not be bothered.

Sincere thanks,

Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DBS10E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 11 Jul 2005 2:04 am

Marco, on my photos you blew up, note the lack of felt and wood texture. looks standard?

i will studt you idea today.

thanks,

Billy

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William Johnson (Billy)
Grievous Angel Productions
Statesboro, GA. 30461 USA
http://www.grievousangelpro.com

Derby DBS10E9
Custom BillieTele Telecaster
Peavey NV400
Peavey TubeFex
Goodrich 7A

Please 'Mouse' to see larger photo.

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/derbyfront.JPG

Summer 1969

http://usera.imagecave.com/GreivousAngelPro/Billy1969.JPG

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 12 Jul 2005 2:19 pm

Unfortunately, selling the guitar and moving on may be a good decision. I once had a Sho~Bud Super Pro that I could never get comfortable with. I ended up selling it. It just doesn't sound like this is the right guitar for you.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400