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Topic: C13, E13, D Major tunings, scale length selection, etc |
W. Johnson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2017 4:28 pm |
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I'm building another aluminum 8 string frypan for someone, but I thought I'd check for some of your thoughts on what would be a good scale length and string gauge selection for the following 8 string tuning, which is E13:
Jules Ah See’s E13: E G# B D F# G# C# E
I'm inclined to think perhaps 24" scale might be better than 22.5" scale. But some of you may have some experience with this tuning or more knowledge than me on this. Low string gauge of .056, high of .012
Also, we may want to at some point also go with D major tuning, and possibly a C13 tuning.
Again, I have my own thoughts on what might work best, but I appreciate input from others.
Thanks,
Wayne
_________________
I am on Facebook as Innovative Guitars. Photos of all my work in photo album. I no longer make lap steels, but still make tone bars. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 7:38 am
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| Either scale length will work with the right strings, but I'd use the shorter scale. Best of luck, please post pics when done. |
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W. Johnson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 11:55 am
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| David M Brown wrote: |
| Either scale length will work with the right strings, but I'd use the shorter scale. Best of luck, please post pics when done. |
Why would you use the shorter scale?
I can post pics when done, gunna be about 2 or 3 weeks to finish.
Wayne
_________________
I am on Facebook as Innovative Guitars. Photos of all my work in photo album. I no longer make lap steels, but still make tone bars. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 12:44 pm
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Shorter scale = easier for difficult slants.
22.5" standard
Longer scale = pedal steel little to no slanting.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 1:52 pm
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There are easy forward and reverse slants but the beauty of the tuning comes in close voicing and trying to connect movement from one chord to another which works really well with straight bar and every slant possible using triad voicings. Like a pedal steel.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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W. Johnson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 2:32 pm
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Shorter scale = easier for difficult slants.
22.5" standard
Longer scale = pedal steel little to no slanting. |
Yes, I agree, 22.5 makes for easier bar slants.
On lower tunings, like the E13 tuning, to me on a shorter scale, doesn't sound as nice on the lower notes. Going to larger diameter strings for low tuning on short scale, also to my ears doesn't sound as nice. On this guitar we'll be using the lower E13 tuning, and possibly in the future go to an even lower D tuning.
But I appreciate the input, and will relay this information and from your other post, to the musician who will own and play this guitar.
Can you elaborate on 'difficult slants?'. I play a 24" scale most of the time. I am by no means a great player, but I am able to do bar slants with it, but perhaps, not the difficult slants you might be referring to. I also do not personally use E13 tuning (but may try it some time.)
Wayne
_________________
I am on Facebook as Innovative Guitars. Photos of all my work in photo album. I no longer make lap steels, but still make tone bars. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 2:47 pm
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Sure
an example of a difficult slant is a reverse slant using
Strings: G#, E, C#
In a reverse slant for a Cm spread voicing with your 3rd as the melody note.
So Fret 4 - 3- 2 positions find the notes C, G, Eb
Or when moving from a
Dsus4b13 Voicing for a pedal sound D - F# - B strings at the 8th fret gives you a
Bb - D- G
Then raise the Bb - B while keeping the D and G
Then raise it again to a C, Eb, G
So now you moved from a Dsus4b13 - G - Cm
On a longer scale that second move will sound WAAAAY Out.
Also I use a Peterson Tuner that has some really excellent E9 presets that sound awesome from Buddy Emmons and Jeff Newman.
I'd recommend Jeff Newman's SE9 tuning offsets. Seems to sound great the E's are slightly sharp of concert pitch but sound more like records from the E13 masters.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 3:00 pm
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| W. Johnson wrote: |
[.....
Can you elaborate on 'difficult slants?'. I play a 24" scale most of the time. I am by no means a great player, but I am able to do bar slants with it, but perhaps, not the difficult slants you might be referring to. I also do not personally use E13 tuning (but may try it some time.)
Wayne |
There are so many Gems I am discovering myself
Like
String D - G# - B
At the 8th fret play CM7 with the 5th on top triad.
So B -E -G
Then Flatten the B (the M7| to become a Dominant which is straight bar)
Bb - E -G (C7 with 5th on top)
Then Flatten it again
To become A - E -G (FM9)
Then Flatten it again
to Become Ab - E - G (FmM9)
Whooo what an awesome sound. Anyway just some gems I am discovering that connect lines and believe you me there are tons more but I won't bore you.
Hope this helps Wayne.
Longer scale you may struggle but just be aware of the challenges and work to suit.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 3:08 pm
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Can I tease you wi9th one more I hear a lot.
A perfect example is if you listen to Doug Jernigan play Cherokee.
There is a sweet move from a Cm inversion Eb - G -C on the first fret
Then raise the G -G# and The C -C# but keep the Eb in position.
So it becomes Eb -G# - C# Forward slant Which is a nice Eb7sus4
OK I'll stop now but you get my drift on "difficult slants"
All of the ones I mention skip 1, 2 and sometimes 3/4 or strings at a time. All triads to get that pedal steel change sound.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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W. Johnson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2017 7:11 pm
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Can I tease you wi9th one more I hear a lot.
A perfect example is if you listen to Doug Jernigan play Cherokee.
There is a sweet move from a Cm inversion Eb - G -C on the first fret
Then raise the G -G# and The C -C# but keep the Eb in position.
So it becomes Eb -G# - C# Forward slant Which is a nice Eb7sus4
OK I'll stop now but you get my drift on "difficult slants"
All of the ones I mention skip 1, 2 and sometimes 3/4 or strings at a time. All triads to get that pedal steel change sound. |
Thanks Stefan, I'll have to try out some of this.
Wayne
_________________
I am on Facebook as Innovative Guitars. Photos of all my work in photo album. I no longer make lap steels, but still make tone bars. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2017 5:00 am
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| W. Johnson wrote: |
Why would you use the shorter scale?
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Shorter scale = easier for difficult slants.
22.5" standard
Longer scale = pedal steel little to no slanting. |
Well I do use slants on my long scale 8 string....but yes the shorter scale makes it a bit easier for slant bar work, as the other posters have confirmed. |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 26 Nov 2017 12:09 pm Scale length
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| Does wider string spacing 3/8 help with longer scale? I had my Hudson 10 string made with 24 scale. Wanted less spongy, tighter feel to strings. 22 seems mushy sometimes. Everything is a trade off I guess. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 26 Nov 2017 8:30 pm
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String spacing I use the same width as a standard MSA superslide not sure if its the same as their PSG range.
As far as strings sounding loose that may be the case if you use a C tuning or the wrong string gauge on a shorter scale Lap Steel Guitar.
But definitely not an issue on E13. Once again I still believe this is down hugely to string gauge choice.
E13 is always tuned higher so has a more crisp sound in general to the ear.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 26 Nov 2017 8:42 pm Scale
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| Seems like more for my A6 neck. Use the standard set they sell on here. I think lap steels tend to have wider string spacing. E13 is indeed tighter. I will be using a 7/8 pedal steel bar for 10 string lap as opposed to my Jerry Byrd size bar. At least to start. What size bar do you use? |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 26 Nov 2017 10:43 pm Re: Scale
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| Tom Cooper wrote: |
| Seems like more for my A6 neck. Use the standard set they sell on here. I think lap steels tend to have wider string spacing. E13 is indeed tighter. I will be using a 7/8 pedal steel bar for 10 string lap as opposed to my Jerry Byrd size bar. At least to start. What size bar do you use? |
I use a custom Ben's Bar 12.4 Oz heavy 1" x 3 3/4 bullet bar. Works for me while others would run in fear.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Custom-Made-Stainless-Steel-Tone-Bar-for-Pedal-Steel-lap-steel-Guitar-etc/172963990348?var=471726856371&hash=item2845750b4c:m:mRpkzlNFVDLqjjhRj6dfxZw
Weight is a personal preference vs downward pressure. I prefer to use no downward pressure and let the weight of the bar take care of that.
Downward pressure can sharpen notes and especially on E13 tuning can sound really out if certain intervals are sharp.
Bar choice is personal preference but I had the most expensive bar that the pro's use and used Ben's bar and maybe it was the weight and machining but his bar came out on top and it wasn't even a close race it was that much more obvious.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 27 Nov 2017 3:48 am Bar
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| Wow. A 1 incher! Bet it sounds fat. I had one but I like to pick up and move bar a lot. Too heavy for quick movement, plus hard to see high up. Probably more my shortcomings than the bar. I would have stay with it a while. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 27 Nov 2017 4:34 am Re: Bar
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| Tom Cooper wrote: |
| Wow. A 1 incher! Bet it sounds fat. I had one but I like to pick up and move bar a lot. Too heavy for quick movement, plus hard to see high up. Probably more my shortcomings than the bar. I would have stay with it a while. |
If you like to move the bar a lot a 1" isn't that difficult. Just practice and hand exercises. Can't do small bars anymore they also make it harder for split slant chords whereas a larger bar give a smoother sound. IMHO
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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W. Johnson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2017 7:28 am
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I have a 1"x4" Stainless bar, really heavy, no need to push down with it at all. Fat sound and sustain is super. I also have been making 15/16" x 3.5" or 4" with 440c stainless, same super nice fat tone and sustains for miles. I also have a 3.5" and also 4" aluminum bars, anodized and polished like glass, very light weight and fast and easy to pick up (the stainless bars are really heavy and not so good for pickup up a lot.) Both work well but one is for speed, one is for fat tone, just depends on what sound I want at the moment when playing. Slants sound better with the stainless, but it's easier to change slants with the aluminum light weight bars.
(I'm a machinist, so, I can make my own bars)
Wayne
_________________
I am on Facebook as Innovative Guitars. Photos of all my work in photo album. I no longer make lap steels, but still make tone bars. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 27 Nov 2017 10:57 am
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| W. Johnson wrote: |
I have a 1"x4" Stainless bar, really heavy, no need to push down with it at all. Fat sound and sustain is super. I also have been making 15/16" x 3.5" or 4" with 440c stainless, same super nice fat tone and sustains for miles. I also have a 3.5" and also 4" aluminum bars, anodized and polished like glass, very light weight and fast and easy to pick up (the stainless bars are really heavy and not so good for pickup up a lot.) Both work well but one is for speed, one is for fat tone, just depends on what sound I want at the moment when playing. Slants sound better with the stainless, but it's easier to change slants with the aluminum light weight bars.
(I'm a machinist, so, I can make my own bars)
Wayne |
Sounds awesome Wayne a 1 x 4" bar. love it. if you build up hand strength its not as hard as you think to lift it rapidly. 12.4 Oz isn't that heavy.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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W. Johnson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2017 11:39 am
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
| W. Johnson wrote: |
I have a 1"x4" Stainless bar, really heavy, no need to push down with it at all. Fat sound and sustain is super. I also have been making 15/16" x 3.5" or 4" with 440c stainless, same super nice fat tone and sustains for miles. I also have a 3.5" and also 4" aluminum bars, anodized and polished like glass, very light weight and fast and easy to pick up (the stainless bars are really heavy and not so good for pickup up a lot.) Both work well but one is for speed, one is for fat tone, just depends on what sound I want at the moment when playing. Slants sound better with the stainless, but it's easier to change slants with the aluminum light weight bars.
(I'm a machinist, so, I can make my own bars)
Wayne |
Sounds awesome Wayne a 1 x 4" bar. love it. if you build up hand strength its not as hard as you think to lift it rapidly. 12.4 Oz isn't that heavy. |
I've had conversations with players, who told me that after 2 or 3 hours of playing, handling a heavy bar can be an issue. I personally never play that long at a time. A heavy bar for some can stress the wrist, tendons, etc. Hours upon hours of playing can take its toll. Just like some typists, if they do not keep proper posture, correct angles for the wrists, can develop carpel tunnel and other problems, and even holding ones hand straight out with no added weight can be a problem. I've sold quite a few aluminum bars to musicians who have some sort of problem managing heavy bars. To me or you and some others, 12 oz is nothing, but it can be to others who have developed problems in the wrist, hand, fingers, etc. Be very glad you don't have any problems.
_________________
I am on Facebook as Innovative Guitars. Photos of all my work in photo album. I no longer make lap steels, but still make tone bars. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 27 Nov 2017 12:16 pm
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Hey Wayne.
To counteract the weight I try and do strengthening exercise I learnt from Piano vids. It really make a difference.
Plus I pick up the bar a lot less now I'm trying to learn connected lines. So weight really shouldn't be an issue.
Having a heavier bar reminds you to start connecting the dots/slides and less Jumping. It really is now starting to make sense.
Best example is look at Doug Jernigan play at the 2016 TSGA. Long fluid connected lines with minimal bar raises.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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W. Johnson
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2017 12:21 pm
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Hey Wayne.
To counteract the weight I try and do strengthening exercise I learnt from Piano vids. It really make a difference.
Plus I pick up the bar a lot less now I'm trying to learn connected lines. So weight really shouldn't be an issue.
Having a heavier bar reminds you to start connecting the dots/slides and less Jumping. It really is now starting to make sense.
Best example is look at Doug Jernigan play at the 2016 TSGA. Long fluid connected lines with minimal bar raises. |
As a machinist, I do manual labor with my hands all day long. I also live on a farm, lots of farm chores. I guess that's enough exercise. I have arthritis but it's 100% in remission. used to be I could not pick up a hammer let alone swing it. Now it's not a problem, even can use a sledge if I need to, or swing an axe, etc. So a big 12oz bar is not a problem for me. I like the way it makes the guitar sound.
Wayne
_________________
I am on Facebook as Innovative Guitars. Photos of all my work in photo album. I no longer make lap steels, but still make tone bars. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 28 Nov 2017 1:28 am
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| W. Johnson wrote: |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Hey Wayne.
To counteract the weight I try and do strengthening exercise I learnt from Piano vids. It really make a difference.
Plus I pick up the bar a lot less now I'm trying to learn connected lines. So weight really shouldn't be an issue.
Having a heavier bar reminds you to start connecting the dots/slides and less Jumping. It really is now starting to make sense.
Best example is look at Doug Jernigan play at the 2016 TSGA. Long fluid connected lines with minimal bar raises. |
As a machinist, I do manual labor with my hands all day long. I also live on a farm, lots of farm chores. I guess that's enough exercise. I have arthritis but it's 100% in remission. used to be I could not pick up a hammer let alone swing it. Now it's not a problem, even can use a sledge if I need to, or swing an axe, etc. So a big 12oz bar is not a problem for me. I like the way it makes the guitar sound.
Wayne |
Wayne sounds great. 
Also have a youtube search for Classical Piano Posture and hand position it reaaaaaaaallllly helped make a difference they have it down to a science over 100's of years so you can practice without causing strain.
From finger warmups, to seat position to piano/lap steel height to distance to hand/wrist height etc.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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