Using b & c pedals

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 9 Jun 2005 11:42 am

In Winnie's book there is a scale using bc pedals, open, and ab pedals. Does anyone know what mode it is in?

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 9 Jun 2005 11:55 am

Which Page?

on page 28 there is a series of major scales with harmonizations, but they are not altered in mode: still major.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley s-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35
[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 09 June 2005 at 12:57 PM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 9 Jun 2005 11:57 am

BC pedals and AB pedals???
Might there be a typo in you post, tb ?

I seem to recall all the scales in that book were harmonized major scales.

It would help if you could provide a page number.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 9 Jun 2005 12:31 pm

Sorry Guys,

I don't have the book with me. I guess what I am trying to find out is if you use the bc pedals in a scale does that change the mode?

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 9 Jun 2005 4:12 pm

There is a major scale with B&C on page 28. Here is a bit of one all on strings 3&4.

3|--0--0B--2B--5--7--7B
4|--0--0C--2C--5--7--7C

Please let us know if I am wrong but, I'm pretty sure using the B&C pedals does not make it a different mode, this is still just a major scale. But, I think it depends partly on what chords you play it over.

If you play the notes in a C major scale from C to C (over a C chord) it is Ionian mode.

If you play the same C major scale from D to D (over a Dm chord) it becomes Dorian mode.

This page has an OK description of the sound of the different modes:
http://www.torvund.net/guitar/Theory/Modal_dorian.asp

Long-term, thinking of scales as "patterns" is probably not as useful as learning the notes.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 9 Jun 2005 6:03 pm

TB,

I think what you might be getting at is that when you depress pedals B+C against your basic major chord grips (865, 654, 543) it produces the minor triad (i.e., at the third fret, goes from G major to A minor). Even more noticable as a "mode" change (using mode in its most generic sense) is the change that occurs going from pedals A+B to pedals B+C (i.e., at the third fret with those grips, C major to A minor) since these two chords form a "relative" major and minor pairing.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, tin can

[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 09 June 2005 at 07:04 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 9 Jun 2005 10:00 pm

When you go from pedals A+B to B+C you are simply raising the fifth of the major triad to a sixth, just as if you go from no pedals to pedal A only but a fifth apart if played on the same fret. Depending on what note you call the root it could be a sixth, a minor, most of a major seventh or parts of numerous other chords.

As John has tried to explain (and done a pretty fair job of it at that, with links to references and all), when used in relationship to music theory "mode" refers to the sequence of whole step and half step intervals in a given scale. Changing the "mode" involves nothing more than playing the same sequence of whole and half steps using a different note in that sequence for the tonic (beginning) note of the scale.

There are actually a couple of different minor scales, each of which is a distinct "mode" in its own right and a number of other unusual (for western ears anyway) scales which don't fit either the common major or minor paradigms, each scale identified as a different "mode."

Unfortunately, try as I might, I can't figure out exactly how to answer your question, tb. I am certain that you have a real question in mind, but with no reference to a root note for the chord or scale or whatever that you are referring to there is no way to know if you are asking about actual musical modes or something else altogether.

Am I missing something here?[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 09 June 2005 at 11:16 PM.]

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 10 Jun 2005 9:36 am

"There is a major scale with B&C on page 28. Here is a bit of one all on strings 3&4.
3|--0--0B--2B--5--7--7B
4|--0--0C--2C--5--7--7C"

This is simply a major scale in E on the 4th string, harmonized on the 3rd string.

The notes are the same as if you played:
[TAB]
3| 0--1--3--5
4| 0--1F-3F-5 etc.

G# A B C#
E F# G# B

It doesn't matter how you get the notes.
This is a good example of how important it is to be aware of what the pedals/levers are actually doing, and why the MusymTab (sp?) method makes good sense.

BTW, that scale does not use the AB pedals, only BC and no pedals. There is another scale using AB and no pedals on strings 5 and 6.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 10 Jun 2005 9:51 am

Those are all harmonized major scales in
Winnie Winston's book.

For the other modes, as others have said
here, start at a different point and return
to it.

Bruce in Bellingham

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Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 10 Jun 2005 11:11 am

Let me take a stab at what I think tbhenry is really asking...

The difference between the bc-pedal and ab-pedal harmonized scales shown in Winston's book is:

* The bc-pedal version of the major scale is used when you're using the 4th string as the root note. The scale starts in the "no-pedal" fret, for example, Fret 3 for the key of G.

FYI, the example in the book starts at fret 0, so Winnie's example is an E major scale.

You're using either string 3 or 6 as the harmony note. You can see an example of this in Winnie's book, p. 28. The second scale shown on that page uses strings 4 and 3, and the third example shows the scale using 4 and 6.

* The ab-pedal version of the scale is used when you're pickin' the 6th string as the root note. For example, you would start the scale at the 7th fret with ab-pedals down for an E Major scale. It is based on the pedals-down position.

Use either the 5th or the 10th string as the harmony note for this version of the scale.

For example, the ab-pedal scale, based on the 6th string as the root note. Key of E, starts at the 7th fret, pedals-down:

5|--7A--10--12--12A--14A--17--19--19A
6|--7B--10--12--12B--14B--17--19--19B

A side note: Since the 3rd string is the same note as the 6th, you can play the above scale substituting the 3rd string for the 6th as the root note. So you would be playing strings 3 and 5.

*******
There are other ways to do harmonized scales (plenty), but I hope that helps explain what you're seeing in Winnie's book.

-Tucker[This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 10 June 2005 at 12:13 PM.][This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 10 June 2005 at 12:14 PM.][This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 10 June 2005 at 12:19 PM.][This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 10 June 2005 at 12:24 PM because he's an idiot.][This message was edited by Tucker Jackson on 10 June 2005 at 12:28 PM.]

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 10 Jun 2005 1:30 pm

The problem here is that "mode" is a loaded word, which could mean a number of things. TB can you define what you mean by "mode"?[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 10 June 2005 at 02:30 PM.]

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 10 Jun 2005 3:33 pm

Precisely Greg:

we tend to mean the "church modes" when we say "mode" (Dorian, Phrygian, etc.) But mode can refer to major vs. minor, or many other distinctions in music.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, tin can

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Jun 2005 5:23 pm

It's a harmonized major scale

In C it would be
CMaj, Dmi, Emi, FMaj, GMaj (or G7), Ami, Bdim, CMaj

So it's the Ionian mode

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 11 Jun 2005 5:21 pm

Of course, people respond to different methods of learning. Some people need to hear it, some people need to write it out, some people respond best to visual demonstration…

But, if you would like to have the modes explained by an over-dramatic guy in a wizard outfit, complete with cheap blue lightning video effects and a set including smoke-machines and plenty of gargoyles form Spencer's Gifts, you can't beat the "Guitar Grimoire Scales and Modes" DVD.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0825821711/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/102-3394381-5709741

It is aimed at 6-string guitar, but actually goes over most of the music theory on a piano keyboard, which is nice.
[This message was edited by John Lockney on 11 June 2005 at 06:23 PM.]