Steel Guitar Player Vs. The Sound Man???

Kevin Fix · Post by **Kevin Fix** » 9 Sep 2017 3:09 pm

Is their a proper way to approach the sound man in regards to making you sound like you are supposed to? about one in five shows my wife will actually have to go to the sound man and educate him that the Steel Player is also a lead instrument. It is either the volume or EQ settings. My wife tells these guys, If they don't cooperate, "You do not want him to visit with you after the show" "It Ain't Going To Be Pretty"!!! Some of these guys I met over the years have no business turning on the radio in their car let alone running sound! Any suggestion?

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 9 Sep 2017 6:15 pm

Yes....and you are correct, it is a big problem in our industry, agreed what you said and it can be bothersome. I have found it works best to introduce yourself before hand to Break the ice as they say, and be nice, then as you sound check each instrument your band leader will most likely very politely have him acknowledge the steel as a lead instrument and request headroom in the mix with clarity. I'm fortunate that I play in a 6 piece group and we know personally all the sound guys on our circuit, but prior to that it can be challenging.

Threats however never work I'm afraid and it should always be discussed at sound check, mis understandings and disgruntled feelings ironed out before hand, not during or on the show or by somebody who is not in the band, as that only adds tension to the situation.

One-liner I always use, after I get done with the introduction and the handshake and let him know that I play the steel guitar, I say: "give me some crispy highs and some growling lows sweetheart" (and I always pat them on the shoulder when I say that), I normally get a reply that says: sure thing brother no problem, I got your back.

It is a delicate balance and he holds the mojo bag!!!

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 9 Sep 2017 7:52 pm

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Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 9 Sep 2017 8:19 pm

In my experience form both sides Iâ€™ve observed:
For most types of music performances in small to medium size rooms, if the band has good dynamics and good stage volume as though the band members are playing together and to each other, every part will translate out into the audience regardless of the sound engineer. When the band makes space for a lead the engineer and audience will notice. If band members are not looking and/or listening to each other and each are just playing â€œthe songâ€ individually, then neither the engineer or audience knows what to do with the sounds being created. When playing at venues that are large enough that the audience can only hear the pa and not the stage, then itâ€™s best if the band has their own sound engineer who knows the music. If communicated in advance most venues production managers will be fine with that. - my 2 cents fwiw ymmv nbd lol

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 9 Sep 2017 8:27 pm

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Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 9 Sep 2017 8:41 pm

Back when I played out. In a live situation. As Tommy stated they always ask for your peak volume. And there's no way to know till you hear the mix of the entire band. So I just guessed at that. The short story. I asked that he EQ everything flat, (straight up, 12 O'clock) no effects and adjust volume as needed. If there's time to converse with the sound guy. I'd explain I use 3 volumes. A low volume for pads, medium volume for fills. And hopefully in your face but not overbearing on solo's. Sometime's it even worked out. Mostly depends on how much he or she likes steel guitar. Sound people I've worked with know to watch the peaks and I'll handle the rest.

But judging feedback from fans and family. I was often buried in the mix under the lead guitar, bass and drums. Seems to be pretty much the norm in today's Country music.

b.

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 9 Sep 2017 9:38 pm

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Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 9 Sep 2017 9:40 pm

All this "check check, play some steel, play the guitar" etc... is about worthless in my opinion. What you do individually and with the entire band playing is two different things. Everyone should watch Justin Trevino do a sound check. They walked out and started playing a song, and Justin sings a line, the music keeps going in the current chord and Justin tells the sound man what to adjust and how he needs it. They continue the song with a few more pauses for Justin to give his instructions, and the whole thing is done. Then he tells them to leave it alone. That's the way I saw him do it at the ET Midnight Jamboree. It was really quick and it sounded great.

RC

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 10 Sep 2017 1:06 am

The sound engineers are undoubtedly trying to set the channel gain, also called the trim. If the incoming signal is too hot they get distortion. So it's a legitimate concern, but it doesn't jibe with how we play pedal steel. I don't think they are trying to blend the steel with everything else so much as they are trying to get the best possible gain on each channel, which gives the best signal to noise ratio and makes the rest of their job easier.

I think we need to just give them a good strong signal that is as loud as we will ever be, but don't put the pedal all the way to the floor, even if they ask you to do so. Just tell a little white lie. Don't argue. You'll never win.

Kevin Fix · Post by **Kevin Fix** » 10 Sep 2017 6:51 am

I normally will tell the sound guys to set my EQ's at 12:00 or flat. The volume check I usually give him 75% when he asks me for peak also. White lie here also. That way I make sure I have enough volume when needed for fills or a lead. I am a super easy guy to get along with. Sometimes it gets a little frustrating. Thanks guys for the info and God Bless!!!

Tommy Detamore · Post by **Tommy Detamore** » 10 Sep 2017 7:10 am

My experience with sound companies more often than not is what I have come to call the "30-30" sound check. 30 minutes on the kick drum, and 30 seconds on the steel guitar. ðŸ˜œ

Bobby Nelson · Post by **Bobby Nelson** » 10 Sep 2017 7:18 am

In my experience, the best sounding bands had their own sound man - very few of us can afford that. We always played a little Club In Charlotte called The Double Door Inn. I played it a lot, and ran sound a bunch too. I found that, if the sound man wasn't a musician (sometimes, even if he was), you weren't going to hear anything but bass and drums. It always drove me crazy. When I first started running sound, I wan't real good with all the technical stuff with all the knobs and buttons. But I was really amazed that, if you just listened to the band, and made some minor volume adjustment here and there and, used the idea that whoever is playing lead or a solo should be heard over everything else, It was very easy to make a band sound really good. You have one fader that controls all of the drum mikes, one for the bass (which, a good majority of the time, the bass coming off the stage was fine with no PA at all). I'd ask guys who I knew had a good ear to come and listen and they'd say it never sounded better. Then I'd ask why it seemed so hard to get this kind of sound. My conclusion was that a majority of non-musician sound men were paying far to much attention to getting good drum and bass sound (to them), and all the technical gizmos and were not even aware of anything else going on with the sound in general - a big problem. for me, the hardest thing was making singers happy with the monitors (but this was before the days of earpiece monitors which I know nothing about.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 10 Sep 2017 7:27 am

[quote 30 minutes on the kick drum, and 30 seconds on the steel guitar. [/quote]

That's my experience. If the steel will power up. That's good enough. One thing that helped me get heard. Before I hung it up. We were playing mostly block party's. The sound guy's only new how to mix rock. So for my sound check I would play the intro to Sweet Child O Mine. And maybe Cool and Gangs Celebrate. And funk it up a little. This always bent their ears. Most were to dumb to know anything but country could be played on PSG. So it got me off on the good
foot.

b.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 10 Sep 2017 9:53 am

I've experienced situations where they sound checked the drums for three hours and looked around when the show started and the mic on my amp wasn't even plugged in. I went to one Gene Watson show where you couldn't hear the steel OR GENE WATSON! Only bass and drums. The worst is at bluegrass show where they keep trying to get a rock & roll bottom out of an upright bass. All that said, I have worked with crews that get it perfect every time.

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 10 Sep 2017 10:18 am

I've reached the point with one venue's "sound man" with 50 years experience, that If they book this place again, they will do it without me. Mic the lead guitar amp to the point of ear bleed and complain that he can't hear the steel that isn't mic'ed. Go figure.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 10 Sep 2017 10:47 am

I also tell them to set them EQ flat, but if the steel gets buried in the rhythm section (you know, that overly loud bass and drums syndrome), add some highs to make me cut through the mix, but not make the crowd's ears bleed. I sometimes have the sound man come on stage and listen to the tone from my amp. That gives them an idea of what I should sound like in the FOH speakers. Some soundmen's egos are overly inflated and won't do that, or in large venues, it's too far to walk. This also gets a good repoire going with them.

Then I give them my propsed loudest volume and my lowest volume. My loudest volume does not exceed 3/4 of the travel of the volume pedal.

Then I tell them that I don't want a monitor anywhere near me if I am able to hear the mains. If I can't hear the mains, put a monitor so it doesn't aim right at me, and KEEP MY STEEL OUT OF MY MONITOR. I should be able to hear my amp good enough. I can't stand hearing myself coming at me from 2 directions.

The usually appreciate the info.

Richard Lotspeich · Post by **Richard Lotspeich** » 10 Sep 2017 2:47 pm

Kevin Fix · Post by **Kevin Fix** » 10 Sep 2017 6:15 pm

Back in the 90's I was playing stereo and running through large arena PA systems. That was a real trip also with the sound guys. I ran two channels and told the sound guys Flat EQ's, pan me left and right through the mains and run my faders at the same level as the Lead Guitar player. Used to work pretty good. Had a great day. We played a outdoor church festival. NO SOUND GUY!!!!

Kevin Fix · Post by **Kevin Fix** » 10 Sep 2017 6:33 pm

We are a 6 piece group also playing classic country. We have been together a while too. We are all in good eye contact with each other. We know what each other is doing at all times. Makes a enjoyable sound. I trade off fill and leads with the lead player always. Our front guys wife plays mandolin and she's good but timid. When we play a song like Highway Forty Blues I will back right out so she can be heard. She gives me heck afterwards. I put her right on the spot and she will play!! When the sound guy screws up we know it.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 10 Sep 2017 7:00 pm

It's no doubt a wide open topic Kev, and there's many ingredients involved in this topic.
One key ingredient that I think we should all understand is that a soundman does not need to ride the faders all night as solos come and go, only a trained and assign soundman to your group would be dialled in that acutely.

Doing live shows like garden parties, rodeos, state fairs, corporate gigs etc that technically have hired a sound crew to come in and run sound for them is going to be a plug and play situation and on the fly. The absolute very best you can give is to show light and shade on stage, I always use the term "put your hands behind your back" and that became quite a joke in our group many times because us lead players would actually put our hands right behind our backs, although I meant mentally not physically.

It is very very okay to let the bass/drum/rhythm guitar drive the band and for everybody else to play their parts and drop right out, that gives everybody lots of space, and when they play it has something to say. If you imagine three people all talking at the same time how annoying that is, that's how music can be in a big group, too many people talking all at once it sounds confusing for the listener and displeasing and difficult for a sound man.

Anyway my rant was no reflection upon you or your group, it was just another key ingredient that goes into this thing. Another thing that we fight within this industry is over playing players, it's a disease.

Another key ingredient, is NO volume wars, any good sound man will tell you the less volume coming off the stage the easier his job is. I have been running direct for the past 15 years and do not use an amp on stage, that does not appear to be favourable on this forum, but is very favourable for all the sound guys that I've worked with. I had no idea how loud a Nashville 400 could be at low-volume, until one day I went out front whilst another player played my rig, an amp will " buckshot" sound off stage.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 11 Sep 2017 5:01 pm

Soundmen. I used to get all upset about 'em. Now I don't - ain't worth it. The huge majority of them had never dealt with a pedal steel. I've had more than a few stand in front of my rig, mic cord in hand, and a look on their face that said, "How do I mic this thing?" It's actually kind of funny. About then I'll jump in and ask, "Would it be more convenient for me to run direct," to which they become instantly relieved.

For most of 'em, setting levels for a steel means just seeing if they have any signal. But I do hold back from giving them "full throttle" during sound check. Otherwise, really, they'll dial you so far back in the mix you'd think your amp mic or feed was off.

I once saw a band so teed off at the sound man that they disconnected all the instrument mics and only ran vocals through mains and monitors. An outdoor gig under a shell, the result actually sounded good.

Kevin Fix · Post by **Kevin Fix** » 11 Sep 2017 5:24 pm

Larry, This has been a great topic. You are right about "Riding the faders". Some of these guys play with them all through the show. Their is a company in our area called, "Sound Doctor" and his outfit does a great job.. Thanks for your input!!!!!

Dean Rimmer · Post by **Dean Rimmer** » 11 Sep 2017 7:39 pm

the best you can hope for is to get the sound you want n let it go ...you have done yur job.....i was in albaqurque n saw a guy that posts on this sight make a special appearance the sound man made him sound like shit....n this guy is a top notch player

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 11 Sep 2017 8:12 pm

I don't care about that any more, as long as I can hear what I need to hear out of my monitors, and I have tone I like coming out of my amp behind me, I'm good .... what sound man is doing, or what the band sounds like in the house, i can do nothing about, so I don't sweat about it... when people would come to me telling me they couldn't hear steel, I would just point to the sound booth and send them there... only thing I talk about to a sound man is my monitor levels and mix, the rest of it is not my business, I don't get paid to worry about that...

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 12 Sep 2017 3:51 am

There are several issues to have to contend with.
1. A lot of sound guys are not musicians. They are aware of all the technical stuff but really they just want to pull up the faders and get a FOH that to them sounds good.

2. I feel that you have to have some musical background to be a good sound man and it some cases that does not help either. I have done enough gigs to watch sound guys start micing and equing instruments without even listening to what the guitar sounds like. That is one of my pet peeves. We did a gig at a club with a pretty sophisticated sound system. Damir, I hate to disagree with you but with us the total band sound is very important to me and the other players. Because of my experience in recording studios I am the guy to go out and listen to the FOH. I want us to sound a good as possible to the paying customers not just good on the stage. I have had more than one not so pleasant conversation with some sound guys doing this. The best one was that half the band was not heard on the floor. Sound guy not happy with me but then told me that he had too much compression on the entire mix. Go figure.

3. Mixing is an art form. It is not just pushing up faders and hoping for the best. Some of our guys here are experts. Listen to anything Tony Prior has done or gleam in the words of David Mitchell and others. The only way you really get proficient at it is to spend hours and hours doing it; just like practicing the steel.

4. Finally I have the utmost respect for most sound guys. They have a tough job and being in different venues outside and inside every week makes it more of a challenge. Don't be afraid to ask them to change something if you don't like it. In reality we are selling a product all be it a musical product and for me I want the best sound and mix possible. If it means talking to the sound guy I will. I try to not be controversial but use the velvet hammer approach. More often than not it works!

Sorry for the ramble.

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