Telling the Story of the Guitar

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 May 2005 7:44 am

Thank you David, good arguments! Also, the one fact that Bruce and his supporters have not considered is that harps (which descended, no doubt, from the lyre, an instrument almost 5,000 years old) all have strings of unequal length. The guitar, in all it's variations, has strings of equal length. The argument that a Hawaiian guitar, steel guitar, or pedal steel has no frets, and must therefore be some kind of harp, is quite specious, since many other stringed instruments (basses, violins, cellos) don't feature frets, either. Using the "harp" arguments so far posed, a bass guitar descended from a guitar (because it has frets), while the fretless bass guitar descended from a harp, because it has no frets!

Now, do you see how silly your little argument is?

In closing, and with no disrespect intended, let me say that anyone who does not consider the steel or bar that we use as nothing more than a "moveable fret" certainly has a very narrow perception of things.

Oh yeah...

Wooden Steels Rock!

Probably just that old wooden body warping.

Adjust the legs, and it won't rock so badly!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 31 May 2005 at 08:54 AM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 31 May 2005 8:00 am

Consider this scenario if you would.. I take a telecaster... Raise the nut and bridge and install heavy strings.... I install Bigsby palm pedals or one of those rare MSA pedal setups to it. NEVER again do I use that tele as a fretted instrument.

From the day I installed these mods I use a steel bar, fingerpicks and play it on my lap strings up. The frets are used ONLY as position reference points and all chording is now done with bar positions and pitch changes done via whatever mechanism was installed..
Has this Tele now evolved into a decendant of a harp or zither???.. I rest my case.. Its STILL a guitar.. The functionality has been altered, but its a guitar.. I still say a steel guitar of any kind, INCLUDING square neck resos, laps,pedals,etc are variants of guitars .... bob

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 31 May 2005 8:35 am

Lots of good info here. I got to learn a new word, too!

SPECIOUS: 1. Showy 2. Having deceptive attraction or allure 3. Having a false look of truth or genuineness

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 31 May 2005 8:44 am

What is Daewin's theory of the evolution of the STEEL GUITAR? Joe

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 May 2005 10:03 am

A pedal steel zither - I think I'm gonna remember this the next time someone commends my xylophone playing.

Donny, good point about harp strings being different lengths and guitar strings being the same length. The zither of course is like the guitar in this respect, and can be played with frets or a slide, the same as a guitar. I'm thinking we are playing some kind of a zither-guitar thing.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 31 May 2005 at 11:10 AM.]

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 31 May 2005 11:18 am

I don't think there is any longer any doubt about it.

Many of the people here would take the engine from a
car, hitch up a team of horses to it, and thereafter
insist that the buggy was derived from the automobile.

There is no point in trying to reason with such people.
Better to just leave them in their la-la lands.

I can see one of them at a concert where the band
discovers that all of their instruments have been
ripped off sometime during the day, running up to the
lead guitarist and going "Hey buddy! No problem! You
can use my pedal steel GUITAR. Got it in my trunk!"

-----------------------------------------------------

Back to the real world...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Steel guitars were originally invented and
popularized in Hawaii. Legend has it that in the
mid 1890's Joseph Kekuku, a Hawaiian schoolboy,
discovered the sound while walking along a railroad
track strumming his Portuguese guitar. He picked up
a bolt lying by the track and slid the metal along
the strings of his guitar. Intrigued by the sound,
he taught himself to play using the back of a knife
blade.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here we have the alleged inventor of the steel "guitar"
walking along the railroad tracks in Hawaii in the late
1800's, some 75 years after the Chinese arrived in
Hawaii to work on the sugar plantations.

Where did those railroad tracks go? Mostly they
connected the sugar plantations (which were huge)
with the waterfronts. And who lives by the railroad
tracks? The lowest of the low, always. In this case,
the Chinese.

He probably observed and listened to someone or
someones playing the Chinese Zither many times. The
Chinese are known for taking their own culture with
them wherever they have traveled and settled. That's
why their "Chinatowns" are known across the globe.

He fell in love with the sound and the style. What to
do? Could he buy one from them? Not very likely. Such
instruments would be highly prized. Make one from
scratch? Why? There were instruments around with almost
as many strings that could easily be CONVERTED into
pretty decent Chineze Zithers (at least to the eyes and
ears of someone who had only seen and heard them from a
distance) in no time at all.

Could be....

Bruce in Bellingham

------------------
Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 31 May 2005 11:46 am

is it ok Bruce if i still call it a Steel GUITAR, just like everyone else does...a Pedal Steel Guitharp, Harptar, steelharp, pedal harp? naw..i am open for change just like anyone..but get real! i want to take lessons from my friend Bob Carlucci, on the nose harp!

------------------

Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 31 May 2005 12:16 pm

George Redmon,

You can call an elephant a "turtle" if you wish.

Long as you don't drool on my carpet.

Bruce in Bellingham

------------------
Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 May 2005 12:53 pm

Bruce, you're still wrong on all counts. The defining musical characteristics of a harp are that it has many strings of different lengths, and one gets different pitches by playing different strings. The defining musical characteristics of a guitar are that it has a few strings of the same length, and one gets different pitches either by playing different strings, or by mechanically shortening the same string with a finger OR A SLIDE. Whether the sound is amplifide by a box near the bridge, or a box that extends to the nut (or a magnetic pickup), these are simply varieties of amplification that have nothing to do with how the instruments are played musically.

The buggy/car analogy is shallow and disengenuous. Cars clearly evolved from buggies. We eliminated the horses and used an internal combustion engine. Then the Wright brothers put an internal combustion engine in a winged contraption and got an airplane. Most people don't think of the airplane as being derived from a car. But if one were forced to choose, I think most people would say the airplane derived more from a car than from a buggy. Is the airplane a buggy? Or a car with wings? Or simply an airplane?

Likewise, guitars evolved from harps only in the sense that all stringed instruments derived from a harp. Even that is not clear. I'm thinking there were primitive instruments with one or a few equal length strings played by fretting or sliding about the same time there were the first harps. Which did the guitar derive from? How different does an instrument have to be from a harp to be called something else? What about the fiddle family, are they also harps? Are sitars harps? What about mouth harps? They don't have strings, but they have reeds of different lengths. Organs have pipes of different lengths, so are they harps?

The problem here is that you are acting like there is some systematic, scientific, authoritative method for naming instruments, like the phylogenetic nomenclature of biology, or like the IUPAC methods for naming chemical compounds. No such thing exists for musical instruments. They pretty much are what the people who play them call them. Pedal steel guitars derived from guitars, perhaps played with a Chinese zither type slide. They are still played by guitarists that call them guitars. The fact that they have converged towards pedal harps in a few respects does not make them harps.

A cow has four legs. Suppose we call the tail a leg. How many legs does a cow have? The answer is still four. Calling a tail a leg does not make it one.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 May 2005 12:55 pm

By the way, did anyone scroll down on the "country" harp site and hear her play steel guitar rag? Makes me think that if a harpist can play that, pedal glisses and all, then maybe I should take the time to learn it...nagh.

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 31 May 2005 1:25 pm

Delete this duplicate post, would you Bobby Lee?

Don't know how this happenned.

------------------
Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!
[This message was edited by Bruce Burhans on 31 May 2005 at 03:09 PM.]

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 31 May 2005 1:26 pm

David Doggett,

Bruce, you're still wrong on all counts

Obviously, I think that YOU are wrong on all counts.

This is getting old. Time for something other than hot
air and attempted verbal bullying.

I'll bet you that a panel of acknowledged and
credentialed experts on the forms of musical
instruments would NOT classify the pedal steel as a
type of guitar.

How about if I compose a letter and send it to the
music departments of 3 major universities?

Just ask them to classify the pedal steel for us.

How do you prefer your crow? Baked or fried?

Bruce in Bellingham

------------------
Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 31 May 2005 1:30 pm

Bruce, in your original post you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>although myself and many others
consider the Steel to be an instrument that bears only a superficial resemblance to the guitar, being more closely related to the harp.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps if you list the "many others" and/or reference the sources for your conclusions, it would be helpful.

Lee, from South Texas

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 31 May 2005 1:44 pm

The frist steel guitar I owned played was called a E-Harp!That was Ed Alkire's coined name for his Hawaiian steel guitar.I have always told people I play the other lead guitar, a steel guitar. Like the add said " try pork the other white meet". Now if you play a keyless steel I don't know what you'd call it.

.Joe

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 May 2005 2:04 pm

Clearly, Bruce, you're really grasping at straws now.

...running up to the lead guitarist and going "Hey buddy! No problem! You can use my pedal steel GUITAR. Got it in my trunk!"

That argument is called a non-sequitur, meaning "it does not follow". It does not follow that someone who could play the electric guitar must also be able to play an electric steel guitar. It would be no different than handing Earl Scruggs a tenor banjo if he lost his 5-string, and expecting him to play "Foggy Mountain Breakdown". Or, giving the local crop-duster pilot an F-18 and telling him..."Whaddya' mean you can't fly it? It's an airplane, isn't it?". Of course, all that's ridiculous because things don't necessarily transfer to similar tasks just because they have a word in common. A carpenter's rule can't be substituted by using the "Golden Rule". (LOL!)

Are you sure you're not just pulling our leg to break the monotony of late?

I could understand that, at least.

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 31 May 2005 2:05 pm

Lee Baucum,

I encountered the idea while reading through the
archives right here on the SGF.

But don't think that what you want would help
anything, prefering to rely on reason over opinion and
personalities.

Science, not politics.

Joe Miraglia,

E-harp. Of course. The craftsman who made it named it
for the instrument it most closely resembled.

Bruce in Bellingham

------------------
Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 31 May 2005 2:26 pm

Bruce - Are you saying that your conclusions are based upon reason and the rest of the conclusions that have been expressed on this thread are merely opinions?

Stephen Dorocke · Post by **Stephen Dorocke** » 31 May 2005 2:53 pm

Actually, going back in the post a bit, the guqin is NOT played with a steel, or some type of moveable "fret." Notes are achieved by pressing the string or strings to the fingerboard by the fingers. And, the fingerboard has a pronounced radius like that of the violin family, only less.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 31 May 2005 3:23 pm

i'm almost in tears...ready to sit here and cry my little heart out..Joe..i play a keyless...and...sniff sniff, hard swallow, i call it a steel guitar to...like you do yours!...i guess i get too emotional....

------------------

Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

[This message was edited by George Redmon on 31 May 2005 at 04:32 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 May 2005 4:15 pm

The reason it is getting old, Bruce, is because you have been dismissive and have not answered a single one of my questions, nor rebutted a single one of my points, or those of the others. If you want to give up your conjecture with no effort to respond to reasoned objections, fine, it's not worth much of anyone's time. If you want to debate this logically for the fun of it, give us your definition of a harp, and give us your definition of a guitar. We'll list all the characteristics of a pedal steel and see which it matches better. Sure, you can ask some music school guys. If you come up with an unbiased group of judges that are knowledgeable about musical terminology and history, and you let them hear both sides, I'll give you your choice of one CD or tape from the Forum, if you win. But now, are we debating whether the pedal steel whatever is a harp or a zither, or do you consider the zither and harp the same thing?

Jon Kostal · Post by **Jon Kostal** » 31 May 2005 4:19 pm

We have a local newspaper here in town that had a sports columnist that claimed that golf was not a sport. Instead of reporting on golf, he dedicated a complete column one weekend about how golf could not be a sport. This thread reminded me of this. I believe most people consider golf a sport. Sure it's not like basketball, but is still considered a sport, and reported by sports reporters. The steel guitar may resemble a harp in many ways, but it will continue to be called a steel guitar. It SOUNDS like a guitar, doesn't it? It doesn't sound like a harp. The argument in my opinion is moot.

------------------
Uncle Jons Music

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 31 May 2005 4:50 pm

Bruce, on a serious note..and anyone who has read any reply i have written, knows i just hate to be serious...You have many valid points, and i can see where one could go that route, Gibson Electra Harp..just one example. But no matter where we believe the origin of this great instrument may lie. I think we can all agree, it is unlike a harp, and in many many ways unlike a guitar as well...so how about some middle ground...That was a great idea you had, ask some stuffy professor somewhere, his thoughts..get back to us. Lets see what the "Educated Minds" think on this subject.If i made you angry in any way..by anything i may post, please accept my apologies....

------------------

Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 May 2005 5:49 pm

I was all set to let this drop. Then I remembered these...

They're called "harp guitars". Yeah, I'll agree that this one (or at least half of it) came from a harp!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 31 May 2005 at 06:50 PM.]

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 31 May 2005 5:58 pm

OK folks this is getting silly with the chicken and egg thing.....the first 'electric' guitar WAS a steel guitar. It could be said then that the evolution of the guitar and the steel guitar are inextricably linked. This is a short quote from NPR website http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/patc/electricguitar/
*********************************

In the 1930s, American bands got their "swing" from the drums, the bass and the strum of an acoustic guitar. Trouble was, no one could hear the guitar very well, and it pretty much stayed in the background as a rhythm instrument.

"Then something new appeared on bandstands -- a musician sitting on a chair with something that looked like a miniature banjo in his lap," Joyce reports. "A wire connected the instrument to a box. And out came a strange new sound."

That new sound was simple physics. A vibrating metal object -- in this case, a guitar string -- moving in a magnetic field creates a signal that can be picked up by a wire coil. Inventor and musician George Beauchamp, who played Hawaiian music in Los Angeles, is said to have created the first crude electric guitar on his dining room table.

Why was Hawaiian music key to the invention of the electric guitar? "You had the Hawaiian musicians where... the guitar was the melody instrument," says guitar historian Richard Smith. "So the real push to make the guitar electric came from the Hawaiian musicians."

Beauchamp applied for a patent for his invention -- a small guitar body with two horseshoe magnets on the top, with the strings running between the magnets' arms. Beauchamp dubbed the instrument the "frying pan." In 1931, he and engineer Adolph Rickenbacker created their first electric guitar. But Beauchamp didn't get a patent until 1937, and by then several other companies were making their own electric guitars.

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 31 May 2005 7:06 pm

Stephen Dorocke,

[QUOOTE]Actually, going back in the post a bit, the
guqin is NOT played with a steel, or some type of
moveable "fret." Notes are achieved by pressing the
string or strings Illinois, USA to the fingerboard by
the fingers.[/QUOTE]

You know, I wasn't able to find any description of the actual
technique. Got the reference from a concert announcement about
a Japanese virtuoso on that one-stringed instrument of theirs
that's played with a wooden bar and plucked.

It said that the instrument was derived from the guqin, and
when I saw the picture, just assumed that this instrument
also used a wooden bar on silk strings.

Certainly the sound clip I heard _sounded_ as if a bar was
being used, but that _could_ be done with fingers.

The link to the concert announcement, on a "newspaper site"
from Japan, is dead.

DEAD LINK

However, you seem to know what you are talking about, so
I'll just take your word for it.

George Redmon,

There, there...Just play a few intros and turnarounds and
you'll be fine.

David Doggett

I'm sure that a musicologist would classify the pedal
steel as a zither rather than a guitar. You make
think what you wish. I've presented my case to _my_
satisfaction. If you want to know what I think, read
the discussion through.

George Redmon,

You've summed it up well, a reasonable conclusion to
draw from this discussion. No need to consult some
egghead, though he/she _would_ classify the pedal
steel as a form of dulcimer/zither.

There's even a zither that was created in Hawaii in
the 30's that has a movable steel bar, though it is
manipulated by a mechanism, I think. It's on that
fretless zithers site (link earlier in discussion).

The name starts with "har", if I recall correctly.

William Steward,

So the first electric stringed instruments were
Hawaiian steels. That's interesting. Looking for
sustain, perhaps?

Donny Hinson

That'd be fun.

Bruce in Bellingham

------------------
Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!