Neck screw tension

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 11 Aug 2017 12:05 am

It's fairly well known that the screws holding the aluminum neck to an Emmons should not be overtightened, as doing so kills sustain, tone, etc. But does that apply to wood neck Emmons? And does it apply to all steels with necks that are held on by screws (which is probably all pedal steels being made today).

Just as an experiment I pulled out my Williams series 700 keyless s10 with an aluminum neck. It has ten screws that appear to be holding the neck on. I checked those screws and they were all really tightened hard. I back the screws out until there was just a bit of pressure on each screw, and then played the steel.

I swear it sounded better to me with the neck screws loosened. Not a lot different but noticeable. Maybe I'm imaging things. I'll play the steel again tomorrow.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 11 Aug 2017 2:35 am

I recently tore the E9th tuner apart and cleaned it in my 81 Franklin. In order to get the tuner out I had to remove the neck. The 6 screws for the neck were tight, maybe "overtightened" to some. When I reinstalled the neck I tried to tighten them about the same as original. IF the screw tightening really makes a difference I must have hit it right as it sounds the same after putting it back together.

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 11 Aug 2017 7:26 am

Interesting topic.

In the 6 string world, Buzz Feiten is sort of a guru mad scientist inventor type. He came out with his own line of guitars in the past few years.

In an issue of GP magazine a few years back he talked about his guitars, what makes them different/better/etc. A couple of the things that he discussed were the tightness of the neck screws and the bridge plate screws. I was surprised that he noted that he doesn't do them real tight. He claims that it makes for better resonance.

One question on the PSG neck screws: Do the necks contribute to the rigidity of the cabinet?
If so, will loosening them affect the cabinet drop?
Or tuning stability?
Or affect the possible warpage of the body?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 11 Aug 2017 8:01 am

I think the color of the shirt you're wearing makes more of a difference.

Jason Putnam · Post by **Jason Putnam** » 11 Aug 2017 2:58 pm

Makes sense to me. The tone of an instrument comes from vibration. So if the neck is tightened too much it will act as a brace and limit the ability of the body to resonate. That's my unscientific opinion.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 11 Aug 2017 3:22 pm

Click Here

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 11 Aug 2017 4:01 pm

Red Rhodes once put a 5/16 or 3/8 steel rod from one end of the underside of a Sierra to the other, made it really stiff, he felt it sounded better. Go figure.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 11 Aug 2017 8:24 pm

I finally found the time to tinker with the Williams today. First I played the steel with the neck screws fairly loose as set yesterday. It sounded very good. Then I loosened them entirely, just to push it to the extreme. It sounded about the same. But I checked the cabinet drop and it was more noticeable.

Then I tightened everything back up to where it was before I started this journey. All ten screws were very firmly tightened. The cabinet drop was a bit less, but the tone definitely suffered. It sounded like the notes were getting choked off. The high end sustain declined significantly.

The test I ultimately used was setting the volume to a reasonable level with the pedal, then taking my foot off the volume pedal, so sustain from the volume pedal was not part of the equation. Then I would firmly pluck strings 3 & 5 with the bar at the tenth fret, or higher, using no vibrato. I could hear the notes dropping off dramatically after only about a second or so. The decay was not even. It sounded choked. Almost like a gate was cutting off the notes.

Then I re-loosened the ten screws to just applying a bit of pressure to the wood, probably less then an 1/8 turn after encountering resistance. The cabinet drop was perhaps a little more than with the screws really tightened down, but less than with no pressure on the screws at all. The sustain, however, was much better. Using the same test on strings 3 & 5, the notes decayed at a much more uniform and even rate. There was none of that choked sound. That's what I have been missing for the three years that I've been trying to bond with this steel.

I appreciate all the comments to this thread. I find it interesting that a steel with legendary tone, the Franklin, would choose to use only six neck screws, whereas the Williams opted for ten. Kind-of makes me wonder.

PS: The nice thing about screws, if you don't like the result when you turn it one way, just turn it the other way.

Don't be afraid.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 11 Aug 2017 8:38 pm

The attachment that Lee added had a quote from Buddy Emmons concerning neck tightness. Years previous to that Buddy went into more detail. He also stated that tightening the aluminum neck to the max killed the sustain. He suggested lightly snugged. I experimented with my aluminum neck Zum vs my wood neck MSA several years ago. The opposite was true about wooden necks. I tightened my wood neck MSA to the max and got much more sustain. I also removed the felt from underneath the neck screws. If the felt killed the sustain it wasn't enough to detect.
So, neck tension does make a difference.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 11 Aug 2017 9:36 pm

I should add, I got this Williams second hand. I have no idea if someone tightened up the neck screws after it left the factory. I just know I like the steel a lot more with those screws set pretty loose.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 12 Aug 2017 12:39 pm

Paul, would you have to remove the fret-boards to access all the neck screws? I want to think at least some of the neck screws come down from the top on an Emmons? Only asking. Never removed a fret-board on any guitar. But have played several where the fret-board were installed wrong by a previous owner.

Thanks b.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 12 Aug 2017 12:55 pm

You do not have to take the fretboard off to get to the neck screws on an Emmons. They are all screwed in from underneath. At least that's the way my Emmons is built. My Williams also.

Mike Scaggs · Post by **Mike Scaggs** » 12 Aug 2017 1:54 pm

Paul Sutherland wrote:You do not have to take the fretboard off to get to the neck screws on an Emmons. They are all screwed in from underneath. At least that's the way my Emmons is built. My Williams also.

Yes Paul on metal neck guitars you are correct. However, on wood neck guitars the screws go in from the top under the fret boards (just did one)

Cheers.

William Liemandt · Post by **William Liemandt** » 12 Aug 2017 2:32 pm

A very interesting thread for me. I'm restoring an early 70's Sho-Bud Professional, and here are my observations so far. I had to remove the glued on fret boards to access the six each per neck wooden neck attachment screws. The screws go in from the top side. The front neck E9 screws were in immaculate condition. The back neck C6 screws were all rusted and corroded out. Not even easy outs could remove those screws as they had zero head left on those screws. Anyway, got them out by hook or crook, and refinished the body and necks.

Question: why were the back neck screws in such bad condition? Based on clues I noticed, I'm fairly certain this guitar never had the fret boards removed previously. Could sweat from the human body do such a thing? Other ideas?

I have reinstalled the wooden necks and torqued them down tightly. I'm still in process of restoring some remaining parts of the undercarriage. This thread is so interesting to me because I want to learn if I should hold off on installing the glued on fret boards. Perhaps, I should wait and experiment, via my non-patented sound testing method, on the wooden neck torquing before I semi-permanently affix the fret boards??? One can easily ruin a glued on fret board during removal and I want to avoid that.

I'm getting some mixed signals from this thread. The way I read this, the majority of respondents say neck torque is only critical on metal necks, but, on the other hand, just go for broke on wooden necks. Please enjoy my attached tongue-in-cheek meme!

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 12 Aug 2017 2:53 pm