You Are My Sunshine - C6 lap steel lesson

[Pat Agius]

hey all

here is my arrangement of "You Are My Sunshine" for C6 lap steel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdNYZK3AO8

You can learn it at https://www.learningwithpat.com/

hope you enjoy!
Pat

[Guy Cundell]

Well, if you want to sound like this I guess you pays your money and gets your lesson. However, I think it would be sad if developing players saw this and thought that it was a good example and a pathway to strong technique.

Pat, I really think you need to stop and rethink your left hand entirely. YouTube has a wealth of excellent contemporary examples to follow, Doug Beaumier, Basil Henriques, Eddie Rivers etc, or I am sure that you could find a good European teacher to set you on the right path.

I am not trying to be mean here but I think it is of concern when underdone technique is put forward as 'expert instruction'. You are not the first, and probably not the last dobro teacher to assume that their expertise translates well to steel guitar. It is like an electric bass player thinking that they can effortlessly teach double bass. The two techniques are a world apart. It just doesn't fly.

I wish you well with your adventures in steel but I think that at this early point in your development it is not a good thing to hold yourself up as an expert.

[Will Houston]

I always like Pat's stuff.

[Pat Agius]

Guy, thanks for sharing your thoughts. however, just because i teach does not mean i hold myself up as an expert at anything. actually i think we are all forever learners...
but to me, a teacher just shows ways for a student to go where he wants to go and there's usually much more than only pure technique involved.
in my case, that's pretty straightforward, i write arrangements and like you said, those who like it can learn it, either with me or by themselves, it's as simple as that, no 'expert' label branded anywhere.

[Stefan Robertson]

Guy I get what you are saying.

HOWEVER Pat did state on his site that he offers a song style approach and I didn't see him state he was an expert.

Just offering additional info/approach.

I think yes not using a Bullet bar is a NO NO as you can forget about split bar chords but I like the fact that he is young like myself and thus will make mistakes and discoveries over the years but I think he is doing something to get users at least started in the right direction.

Troy is the same. He's no expert but at least offers new users to Lap Steel Guitar a basic foundation to start with unlike Scott Grove - don't know if you remember him.

Scott was terrible, arrogant and a rubbish player who new next to nothing about Lap Steel Guitar .

Pat and Troy offer a good first step, especially to my generation that live online.

[David M Brown]

roach.

I think yes not using a Bullet bar is a NO NO as you can forget about split bar chords

That's one of the issues I noticed, along with what seemed like no use of slants in either direction.

One reason I have not put up any teaching videos is that there are already so many good ones out there by top-notch players that I see no need to add my own 2nd-hand versions of these skills.

[Former Member]

It can be hard to understand the well intended meaning of constructive criticism from a stranger thru the internets..
There aren't that many real experts on lap steel technique living on the entire planet.
If you were to watch Jerry Byrd, and then compare how you play to a true master, you might see value in good technique, I sure do!
Some things John Ely explained to me have taken months for me to see the light. And part of the reason is my own internal "resistance" , or something... thinking I'm on my own path, or whatever.
I have to open my heart a little bit, and have the desire to play better, constantly.

[Alex Shi]

Everybody has their own perspective. As a lap steel newbie, who lives in a part of the world where hardly anybody has seen or heard a lap steel, where no store sells them, let alone anybody teaches it, I'm grateful for guys like Troy and Pat and their lessons. Their lessons provided a way for me to get my feet wet with the instrument and learn some songs to cheer up myself and others. Further down the road it will be up to me how deep I want to go with any particular musical style or direction of playing, tuning, technique, etc.

[Bill Groner]

I agree with Alex......Pat, I thought your video was very well done. I encourage you to keep up the good work. I too am new to this and appreciate seeing someone willing to share what they have learned. Being a novice, it was a great video for me, but I am sure to a veteran player it was not much help. Everyone has to start somewhere and for some I think, that was quite a long time ago and maybe they tend to forget how it used to be when learning to play the instrument??? I hope this post encouraged some and didn't offend others.

[David M Brown]

There aren't that many real experts on lap steel technique living on the entire planet.

Which is why we need to use those masters as models so as to maintain the level of playing on the instrument.

It's great that there are so many videos that help folks get into steel guitar.

But I think it's even better when people are paying attention to the highest standards of musicianship and technique, too.

[Stefan Robertson]

There aren't that many real experts on lap steel technique living on the entire planet.

Which is why we need to use those masters as models so as to maintain the level of playing on the instrument.

It's great that there are so many videos that help folks get into steel guitar.

But I think it's even better when people are paying attention to the highest standards of musicianship and technique, too.

David I vehemently Disagree. The guitars popularity enables players of all level to access content some by accomplished players and some by at home youtubers.

Technique is great, masters are great but Options are even better at creating a permanent footprint as to the name, sound and longevity of an instrument.

Could any of you imagine someone believing because there were so many great guitar/piano books that no further ones should be published/shared.

I don't.

Also the thing is an awesome player/teacher will be awesome regardless. More importantly as a corporate teacher myself I know EVERYONE has different learning styles. So even if you tried your best you can't learn everything from one source.

That is the truth in life and even moreso on an instrument. Hell Jazz/Western swing/whatever you name it learned from multiple sources and combined.

That is how we as humans develop and learn.

[David M Brown]

David I vehemently Disagree. The guitars popularity enables players of all level to access content some by accomplished players and some by at home youtubers.

Technique is great, masters are great but Options are even better at creating a permanent footprint as to the name, sound and longevity of an instrument.

I'm sorry to have made my response sound limiting, as you do bring up a lot of good points about learning music and the steel. And I thought from your posts that you would be one to agree, but I was wrong.

Yes, options are good!

My real issue has to do with choices, though - I just suggest choosing to learn from the best players available.

What one chooses to do with the information is up to them.

[Andy Henriksen]

Hey Guy (or anyone else),

I still consider myself a newbie, but I thought the song in the video sounded good. What specifically about Pat's left hand technique do you find wrong, other than he's not playing with a bullet bar (which is certainly not unique to Pat), and he's got no slants in his arrangement (Don Helms, anyone?).

In the quest to get better myself, I want to see what you are seeing here...

[David M Brown]

Hey Guy (or anyone else),

I still consider myself a newbie, but I thought the song in the video sounded good. What specifically about Pat's left hand technique do you find wrong, other than he's not playing with a bullet bar (which is certainly not unique to Pat), and he's got no slants in his arrangement (Don Helms, anyone?).

In the quest to get better myself, I want to see what you are seeing here...

The music sounds good, as it is, honestly. It is not how I would play it at all, but it works well.

The Don Helms point is well taken, too.

So tried to find other lap steel versions of "You Are My Sunshine" but had no luck finding any versions I like more.

As for the bullet bar, you just cannot do many things without one, like certain types of slants, splitbar, and such. One thing I like to do is be able to smoothly "walk up" the scale in 6ths or 3rds - on the SAME pairs of strings for legato - and you need to slant the bar for that sort of thing.

[Former Member]

Andy,
I'm not interested in getting in the fray, and a newb also.
I do take lessons from one of the top guys. - and I try to listen to folks that are better than me.
With the left hand, you want to develop vibrato using your hand not your arm. By splaying out your ring and pinky fingers to form a "scissors" shape, holding the bar with your first 2 fingers and thumb. putting a little pressure on the last 2 fingers. Then open and close the scissors to create the movement that is the vibrato. Practice going from one fret to the next one back using a metronome.
Stay loose and concentrate on not using your arm.
Right hand, you need to develop a "bounce mute". Where you mute right before you pluck the next note. That leaves the note prior ringing for its entire time.
That's what I've been taught by a guy who smokes on steel, and can play anything.
Hope that helps.

[Larry Carlson]

Well, I'm not too sure what to say about the direction this thread took.

First, I am well over 70.
I had to quit armpit guitar due to arthritis.
About 2 years ago I delved into lap steel hoping to keep my music interests active.
Medical problems stopped my playing most of last year but I am back at it now.

If it wasn't for Pat and Troy I would not be playing anything.
Their playing grabbed my interest and their websites are excellent and well thought out.
I started with Troy and progressed rather well I thought.
I found Pat's site and he did a lesson for one of my favorite songs, "Killing the Blues".
I snapped that up so fast it........

So, thanks to these two guys I am learning the basics, learning songs I like and
the world has one more bumbling beginning lap steel player who is enjoying himself very much.
I was taught that it doesn't matter how you do it. If music comes out you are doing it right.
We all know how radically different tastes and opinions in music and techniques can differ.

I may never be good but I will always be enjoying myself and Pat and Troy deserve most of the credit for that.
Add to that the fact I am just to damn stubborn to give up.
Thanks guys..........

[Andy Henriksen]

Andy,
I'm not interested in getting in the fray, and a newb also.
I do take lessons from one of the top guys. - and I try to listen to folks that are better than me.
With the left hand, you want to develop vibrato using your hand not your arm. By splaying out your ring and pinky fingers to form a "scissors" shape, holding the bar with your first 2 fingers and thumb. putting a little pressure on the last 2 fingers. Then open and close the scissors to create the movement that is the vibrato. Practice going from one fret to the next one back using a metronome.
Stay loose and concentrate on not using your arm.
Right hand, you need to develop a "bounce mute". Where you mute right before you pluck the next note. That leaves the note prior ringing for its entire time.
That's what I've been taught by a guy who smokes on steel, and can play anything.
Hope that helps.

That makes sense. Thanks! Now you've got me wanting to run home and see how I do vibrato. I'm honestly not sure and trying to play air steel on my work desk isn't helping.

I do know that I still struggle to do the "bounce mute" without consciously forcing myself to, which, of course sounds, well...forced.

[Alex Shi]

Regarding the bullet vs Stevens bar question, I like Troy's answer in this older thread.

"I get a lot of comments about the bar I use. It works fine for me and Alan (Akaka, his teacher) is perfectly fine with me using it. It's really more about whatever you can use to get the sounds that you want. I'm so used to this style bar that it's very strange for me to switch at this point and really there's not a point to. Maybe in the future if I find I can't do something with my bar maybe I will change but I'm really enjoying the tone I'm getting right now and Alan has no problems with it. It's just about the music really. Thanks for your input!"

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... t=#2414279

[Chris Walke]

Just for a bit of perspective - what if someone said, "hey, that's the wrong technique" to this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMcyZNyzlWI

[Stefan Robertson]

Stanley Jordan is one of my fav's back in the day.

Also on the forum Chris Templeton ( I think) uses tapping technique on a pedal steel.

2 points - if it sounds good it is good vs. Yes you can play a piano with your toes if you train them but why not use the tried and true method.

At he end of the day use whatever gets you there - but realise that you will have to train no matter what you use for years to become great.

So back on track Pat and Troy keep those lessons coming as I think they are useful to many players now and in the future.

[C. E. Jackson]

Pat, I personally use a round bullet-nose bar, and have since the late 1940's.

Don Helms became famous playing for Hank Williams with a dobro bar, and
became a member of the STEEL GUITAR HALL OF FAME in 1984.

Bobby Koefer became famous playing for Bob Wills with a flat bar, and
became a member of the STEEL GUITAR HALL OF FAME in 2004.

Kayton Roberts used a dobro bar, became famous as steel player for Hank
Snow, and became a member of the STEEL GUITAR HALL OF FAME in 2012.

I am unable to use a dobro bar on steel, but if it works for your style, that's great.

C. E.

[Guy Cundell]

Well, both sides to this discussion have been aired well, which is good. I don’t withdraw my initial observations, but a couple of clarifications.

Any good instrumental teacher will tell you that establishing good technique in the early stages provides a pathway to great playing. It can be the most tedious part for the student but it pays off. A Stevens bar is much easier for a beginner but you should ask yourself do you want to be stuck with it?

My point for beginners is really ‘Caveat Emptor’. As this is a site that promotes and fosters this instrument, I think beginners should be able to make choices with knowledge of possible consequences. Having to relearn technique is not the end of the world but it would be nice for beginners if they were aware that they may have to do so at some stage.

Stevens vs Round nosed? Helms, Koefer and Roberts are all originals and masters but they are a tiny minority. Study their music and style by all means but I don’t think that is what Pat is offering.

I am not totally against the Stevens bar but it is ‘horses for courses’. I had a 65 year old student who I taught to use a Stevens bar. It was exactly what he wanted and needed. I didn’t insist that he get a round nosed bar because it was obvious he wasn’t going to delve too deeply into technique. But he is happy and, as someone who had never played a musical instrument before, he is now downloading song lyric sheets and chords from the internet and happily accompanying himself, no further help from me needed. He’s even been doing open mics. I call that a great result.

As far as Pat not being an expert…. Well, I think that when you start asking for money for your work, you have elevated yourself to that position.

Keep on learning! That’s what it’s all about!

[Doug Beaumier]

I tend to agree with Guy and David. I learned to play steel in the 1970s when there was a right way and a wrong way to hold the bar, and to block, and to pick. I took lessons with Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Crawford, and Jeff Newman in Nashville, and those guys insisted that students learn the time-tested proper techniques. In today's world of Youtube, any amateur with a smartphone can post videos. I'm not referring to the video under discussion here, but beginners are seeing a lot of poor technique nowadays... and they thank the poster for sharing his knowledge! Beginners beware.

I was a vocal advocate of round nose bars here in the past, but I quit talking about it. It's hopeless. Players are going to stick with what they do for whatever reason they do. That's why it's important for beginners to do their research and learn the techniques of the masters right from the start, as Guy said. Carry on.

[David M Brown]

I tend to agree with Guy and David. I learned to play steel in the 1970s when there was a right way and a wrong way to hold the bar, and to block, and to pick..

Almost all my music teachers (and I have a Master's in Music, so I had a lot of teachers) impressed upon me the desire to learn the BEST technique possible.

Instruments like the guitar have hundreds of years of teaching traditions behind them - the lap steel maybe a century or so.

However there is no need to re-invent the wheel with technique, the best players have showed us what works.

Sure there are amazing individuals like Helms, etc. that don't use slants, a bullet bar, etc. and are Hall of Famers.

For most of us normal people, though, it helps to learn the best technique from the beginning.

Lap steel can be played all sorts of ways, and most of them can sound durn good!

But to not limit yourself later, I think one needs to really study the instrument and the time honored way of playing.

[Jim Williams]

Larry Carlson : No comment on the original poster here, but you really ought to check out Doug's tab books for C6, and his playing on youtube. Great stuff.