Who created the E9th tuning, when, and why?

GaryHoetker · Post by **GaryHoetker** » 17 Jul 2001 10:59 am

nm Thanks

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 17 Jul 2001 12:28 pm

Gary --- I think there is no real answer to your 2 questions, the E-9th tuning slowly grew to it's present day from E major, which a lot of us used on lap steel.
When 8 string steels started getting popular, the bottom F# [ our 7th] was added. It took me a year to learn how to "dodge" it, before that string was added, we could strum the entire tuning. I think that Ralph Mooney added the high G# string, and Buddy Emmons the 2 wild strings. I am not really sure of this, as we were not in touch with each other those days !! We didn't have a FORUM back in those days !!

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Harry Hess · Post by **Harry Hess** » 17 Jul 2001 1:17 pm

The E9th tuning evolved. If any one person had created it, they would deserve some kind of major award. The tuning is so logical and laid out so clearly and is so easy to understand. Many players have great difficulty moving to the C6 after becoming proficiant on E9, simply because the C6 tuning is not as obvious and requires jumping around the neck a lot more to get chord melodies, etc.

While the E9 tuning evolved, it would probably be said that Bud Isaacs, Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day contributed the most to it's present incarnation.

Regards,
HH

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 17 Jul 2001 3:08 pm

An interesting fact about the development of the the tuning was the first time I was aware of the high F# which we now use as the first string, the low F# string was replaced with the octave higher F# string at the time we were using 8 strings. This would have been the 5th string so you had to avoid it except for a lick or two you could use it on. The one I remember was common on Ray Price recordings which is still much used but with strings 6, 7 and 8 and B pedal down, move down two frets and release pedal. This octave higher F# gave it a very different sound. I actually believe at that time most of us were using a D9th so that string would have been an E. I also seem to remember having a 9 string E9th that did not have the now 8th string E, it was simply missing from the tuning. The E9th as we now know it evolved one string at a time.
Jerry

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 17 Jul 2001 8:03 pm

Very true, Jerry. If I can remember, it all started with the E7 tuning.
E
B
G#
E
D
B
then
F# was put in place of E on 4th string. Then the E was put back between the F# and D.
the others were added later. I think Buddy Emmons put the D# and F# (chromatic called) on the bottom, then switched them to the top.
the rest was history....al

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Jul 2001 1:34 pm

I may have the chronological order a bit off, but the following is to the best of my knowledge.

When Bud Isaacs drove 30,000 steel players crazy with his recording "Slowly" with a little back up from Webb Piece, the three most popular tunings for non pedal steel were:

E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
D
B

E
C#
A
F#
E
C#
A
F#

E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F

Bud Isaacs simply attached a lone pedal to his steel and pulled a G# to and A and pulled his upper B to a C#. So with one pedal Bud in affect combined (for the most part) the top two tunings above.

Of course we all just HAD to have it. I have not a clue to what Bud's whole tuning was only that he went from a I chord to a IV chord or a V chord to I chord with this one pedal.

And all of us used coat hangers, bailing wire and fishin line to do this on our double and triple necks. Mostly Fenders.

It stayed this way for quite a while. Bud was making Webb Pierce millions pushin a pedal. And we copied "note fer note" everthin Bud did. Other steelers for other stars started a doin it too!

Then came along a young JB maestro who probably didn't git any sleep because he done thunk up a way to embelish the sound the rest of us was adoin drivin our wives crazy doin the I to IV or V to I diddy. Course no way did she enjoy that repetitious sound like we did. Specially at 3 o'clock in the morning as we kept sayin,

"man I do love this sound"

But this young man by the name of Buddy who?

decided to split that lone pedal into 2 pedals. NO silly, he did not take a hacksaw and saw the pedal into. Read my fangers as Gomer Pyle once said. "One and a Two". Or ifn yer from the great state of Taxes it is uno, dos,

Yes Buddy now had 2 pedals. And ona them sapsuckers pulled the G# to an A and the other one pulled the B to a C#. Now as always in life, when a feller has 2 (dos in taxes) choices, some of us peapickers going to do it one way and the other adoing the tuther way!

Such was the case with 2 "still wet behind the years" hillwilliams by the name of Buddie (the name's Buddy! and don't you fergit it Carl!!) and Jimmy done and went and proved the previous paragraph to be true.

Buddy bein a "Damn Yankee"

had enuff larnin to not have to count on his fangers so he done and went and labelled them "pushin pedals" A and B. But that scoundral Jim done and went and split his into B and A. Dang his hide anyway.

So now we could get purtier sounds that would again drive our wives crazy all night long as we "rocked a bye baby" on them pedals, as she yelled at 2:45 in the morning,

"Will ya turn that dang thang off and come to bed?" Course as always we paid about as much attention to her as we did out Sunday school teacher tryin to keep us outa trouble!

Some where along in there, ole Bud (don't call me Bud #@#$%$$#@!) decided to add an F# (our first string now) to his git' tar but since this Bud don do NUTHING lack NOBUDY else, done went and putt that strang as the bottom strang. Can you imagine anyBUDy puttin a treble strang on the bottom.

Well Imagine it. Cuz that is what that young kid did!! You had to use yer dang thumb pick to pic that strang. And down at the first fret, it took 3 men and a "fat lady sings" to press that bar down on it

Then an ole country boy by the name a Ralph Mooney done went and added another strang. That ole whippersnapper done and went and putt a high G# and huked it up to that confounded B pedal. I got so mad at him fer a doing it, I coulda hung him out ta dry cuz my Fender 400 was the breakinest G string breaker you evah saw. Oops, skuze me, G# string breaker.

Continued on the next thread post cuz good ole boy bob done went and putt a limit on the amount of words in a post GRRRRRRRR!

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 18 July 2001 at 02:49 PM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Jul 2001 1:37 pm

Meanwhile back at the ranch Ole Bud and good ole boy Shot Jackson done went and formed a company not necessarily in that order (dummy

) and they called it SHO-BUD (Don't call me Bud @#$$#@!)

But ole shot don pay no "attenion ladies and gentaman" to know kid from indiana and he said if'n ya don lack it I'll refer to it as Shot Jackson and Bud Isaacs. Now sonny, if'n ya don lack at, there is the door and don't let it kick.................when ya leave!

And wouldn't ya know that ole salty dog Shot done a went and made Buddy (ya finally got it right carl

) a 9 stranger. Can you get over it? Ever steel player in the hole world got 8 strangers and this punk from Mishawalker "take me back to Tulsa" oops indiana, done come up wid a 9 stranger to accomadate ole moon's high G# to A change and that pesky F# as the bottom strang. Dang his hide. I gotta trade mah Fender on a 9 stranger now and NObody makes one but Sho-Bud (don't call me.....!!).

They oughta hang him HIGH. "High from the highest tree! Woman would ya weep for me." Boo Boop didam dadum wadum chew tobacco. Ok OK so, I forgot the words to the stupid song. What's that? Same to you buddy (NO not you BUD

. And NO, you caint hev yer dang cheapskate quarter back ya putt in the band's kitty bowl, snotnose!!

So we ordered our Sho-bud 9 strangers to git ole Mooney's High G string and Buddy's pesky F# strang. And wouldn't ya know it. I just got mine and before I could make the first late paymint on my new brand new Sho-Bud (ya done it again GRRRRRR), ole Buddy Boy (courtesy ET

), done and went and had ole Shot glass make him a 10 stranger. I was sa mad at him I wished I had been his daddy.

Why I woulda taken him out behind the smokehouse and when I got thru with his hide, he'da been the ona sangin "I got my edukashun out behind tha barn" in steada ole Long Tall Taxen by the name a Jimmy whatshisface. I thing it rhymes wid "Raisen the Dickens"! NOT Sho though, oops I meant SHO-Buddy. (Hey bud, lack at better

)

And you know what that kid done and done also? He done added a D# and he PUTT that F# on top (bout time he figured out whur a treble strang belonged) and went and done putt that D# rat under that F# strang.

Now I ask you, who in the plu perfect hellfar evah heeard of two notes lower on down in the scale a bein at the end of the scale? NObody sangs Do Re Me Fa DO MI La SOLe'. Yet that young yankee kid turned rebel done went and did it! Didn't aks nobody jes wint and done it jes lack he had good sense.

Again ole west coast b0b cat done and limited. Jes wait!!!!

Go to next thread.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Jul 2001 1:40 pm

So we all had to have a 10 stranger now. I got so mad at that kid, I coulda hit him right between the nose wheel of his "Four Wheel Drive" fer havin ta trade in a D-9 fer a D-10. And ta beat all, that kid from Misshap indiana done left Sho-buddy and done and went and run off with a man from NC called Ron and formed a new brand new company.

Mean while back at the ranch, Roy and Dale oops I mean nice players like Lloyd Green and Weldon Myrick done added other things. Like I don't have a clue who added the C pedal. "To be or not to be is the question." NO its not. Is it A B C or is it C B A?

And somebody added a knee lever that lowered the 2nd string to a D (no NOT C#!! that comes later silly---ole Bud is off in NC a "pushin and pullin") and the 8th string to an Eb.

Then ole Lloyd Bridges (oops Green as in "Greensleeves") done and went and added an F lever. And if that was not enough, somebody done and went an tuk that E to Eb change off that one knee lever and created an all new brand new knee lever that lowered BOF dem E's to Eb to match what that kid by the name a Lloyd did when he raised em up to an "F you got the money honey, I got the timeuh".

Ole Buddy meanwhile, with a Steel guitar blacker than a 1932 Model A Ford done pushed (NOT pulled) that second strang lower all the "way down in columbus Ga" to get a C# jes so he could dazzle us gear jammers with his unison notes wid his A pedal. Dang him. Is there no peace with a kid from "My home in Indiana"?

So there ya have it folks. Two "Bud's" and a "moon over Miami" in your new convertible and the farmer's daughter is what done and done it all. Course there was a little Lloyd "Green grass of home" and Weldon the crossrod back on my A pedal and a bit of Jimmy "Crack Korn" liquor thrown in for good measure.

Yesiree bobtail. Them sapsuckers done and went and added all them changes and strangs and then they have the gall to sit in "Tootsies" in Nashberg Tinnessee laughin and a jokin bout the money they caused all us string breakers ta spend in the U S of A and the world at large atryin to emulate ever note them scoundrals did on all them phoney graf rechordings.

I tell you the truth, I would like to get ever one of em in a room and...........

No I would not. I love them everyone dearly for what they did, to create the worlds most awesome tuning. E9th the real KING of country music. (Teresa, you a listen?

God richly bless them and all of you,

carl

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 18 Jul 2001 1:46 pm

I wonder why b0b made a limit?

Go, Carl, Go!

------------------
My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 18 Jul 2001 7:00 pm

I THINK SOME OF YOU GUYS COULD MAKE A GOOD LIVING AS HUMOR WRITERS !!
I salute you !!!!!!!

------------------
<< Moon Mullin in Alaska >>
==Carter S-10==
<< Old Fender-400 >>
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Click HERE for Moon's Home Page

Bill Bailey · Post by **Bill Bailey** » 18 Jul 2001 7:46 pm

Carl,
You may have missed your true calling. I love your hillbilly heart!
Bill Bailey

------------------

jlsmith48 · Post by **jlsmith48** » 19 Jul 2001 7:56 am

Everything you wanted to know about the history of the E-9th but was AFEERED TO AKS.

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 20 Jul 2001 12:26 pm

I think this is a very interesting thread which needs to be bumped to the top !!!!!!

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 21 Jul 2001 4:06 am

I have a folio of Haw songs done by Bernie Kaai and pub by Ray Meaney in 1933. It contains E9 arrangements as well as others. E B G# F# E D . I don't know if bernie was the originator of E9 but there it was in 1933.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Jul 2001 9:45 am

C C,

You are correct about several lap steel tunings using a form of E9th way back. However, NONE of them are like what the standard PSG E9th is with 3 + 4.

Particulary the 1st, 2nd and 3rd strings and being able to raise that 3rd string from a G# to an A.

These facts and the ability to make soo many changes with pedals and knee levers, make E9th unprecedented in the history of the steel guitar.

I hear comments from time to time about other tunings. But the fact that 99% of all recordings (since "Slowly") containing a steel guitar, have used our E9th, proves to my mind at least that it is here to stay for a long time.

It may evolve to a far different tuning some day. Not sure. In my recent survey, all the major PSG manufacturers told me they are seeing more and more requests for the new changes that PF and BE, etc. are coming up with. So who knows.

But the PSG E9th tuning is unique, and for some it will be the ONLY tuning ever to come close to being the ultimate tuning.

"What hath man wrought"? Praise Jesus' holy name,

carl

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 21 Jul 2001 9:58 am

I believe the title of this thread was who invented the E9 and did not say any thing about PSG e9. I most certainly agree that Bud Isaacs saved country steel guitar. Shot Jackson said that Bud used E9 with a high E and that Mooney came along with the high Ab, as Shot always called G#. Shot used the high Ab but not the chomatics. I heard that Emmons took the bottom two small guage strings that Herb Remington used to use with no pedals and put them on top to get the PSG E9 that we all know and love so well.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Jul 2001 1:07 pm

You are absolutely correct, Shot always did refer to our 3rd and 6th strings being Ab instead of G#.

He was however, incorrect. There is NO Ab in the key of E. In fact there is NO Eb (2nd sring) in the key of E. Their is a D#. But what has happened over the years by players not schooled in musical theory is, we interchanged flats and sharps at will. I do it too now, even though I was trained differently; to be able to more easily be understood by those that use other terms.

Several other things:

1. I never gave it a thought that the author of this thread was talking about other than our PSG E9th. I can't imagine him talking about a lapsteel (he may have been), since an E9th tuning (lapsteel) was very rare and never one of the more popular tunings on non pedal steels. E6th or E13th was indeed, but not E9th. If I presumed wrongly, I do apologize to the thread's author.

2. The original tuning for PSG after Bud Isaacs did his thing, did indeed have an E as the top note. It reamained an E for a long time on most PSG's.

Until:

3. Ralph Mooney put a high G# to A change on the top.

Later,

4. Buddy then put an F# on the bottom. The reason for this; Sho-Buds at the time had welded bellcranks so Buddy had Shot put our present first string F# as the bottom string. At that time, if my memory serves me correctly, it did NOT contain the D#. I saw a 9 string Shobud with this F# on the bottom. And it belonged to Gene O'Neal. He told me it was setup like Buddy's.

5. Later Shot built Buddy a 10 stringer and it was at this time, that the F# was moved to the first string and the D# was added as the second string.

It is possible that BE did in fact add the 2 "chromatic" strings because Herb Remington had them. I would be very much surprised though if that was the case. Buddy would of course be the one to verify it either way.

The reason I feel that it was purely Buddy's idea was because of the way Buddy does things. His impeccable ear and "scale" oriented type of playing simply demands that F# and D# be where it is. It fits!!

I feel this is the same reason he removed the G note on his C6 neck and replaced it with a D.

carl

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 22 Jul 2001 1:09 pm

Carl here is another item about Shot. It seems that whenever wewere together we always discussed E9.Shot referred to high G# as Ab and to the middle G# as G#. After a couple of yrs I finally asked Shot why he did this and he sais"because thats the way it is. Shot was a hell of a lot smarter than me. CC

Merv Dawson · Post by **Merv Dawson** » 8 Jul 2002 7:24 am

I'm not really sure why Bobby Garrett's name never comes up when you talk about the people who pioneered the pedal steel guitar. Bobby was one of the first to use the third pedal, according to Walter Haynes, and he told me himself, that he got the first D-10 that Sho-Bud made. That means that he got his before BE and JD. I don't know how long before, but he did have his first. Bobby had to give up playing early in his career and many people don't remember him. I understand that. But he was a pioneer in steel guitar and was ranked #2 in the world behind Jerry Byrd several times. Fender Frets magazine also wrote about Bobby that "if Jerry Byrd played pedals, this is what he would sound like." Just had to comment. He was a great friend and a super player.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 8 Jul 2002 10:57 am

Carl-What great writing. You ought to write a book with all tha knowledge and humor.

About E9- I used to play an E9 on my top neck non pedal D8 in 1939. But being 8 strings, the top note was E, the bottom 4 notes were E9 but with the C# between the E and B (1st and 2nd string) we called it an E13th.

[/tab]
E
C#
B
G#
F#
D
B
G#
[tab] You could get a lot of music and chords out of this. We changed the 2nd string from C# to D and got a nice 7th up there and a 3 note diminished.I used it for years...pretty nice....al

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 8 Jul 2002 12:53 pm

Carl has pretty much of the history nailed except that I added the F# and D# at the same time, which was after Jimmy Day added an E to the middle of the tuning and Ralph added the high G#.

As for the Herb Remington story, my 1954 triple neck Bigsby came with the same inverted tuning that Joaquin, Speedy West and Herb all used, so I too had the tuning before I ever played a Sho~Bud. It was somewhat limited in its use so I removed it after a year or so and used the third neck to experiment with.

It makes a good story to say that I got the idea from someone else or from the inverted tuning itself, but the thought behind the F# and D# notes was to fill the gap between the G# and C# pedal note of the E9th tuning. The old West/Murphey/ Remington inverted tuning was structured around an F#9th chord or Bb m7 b5 chord and never came close to serving that purpose, with or without pedals.

The reason behind the F# and D# ending up as 9th and 10th strings of the Sho~Bud is because I was touring with Ray Price and played a Sho~Bud permanent model that was impossible to change without a blowtorch. I felt that the E9th diatonic theory was a good idea and putting it on as soon as it hit me would give me time to test it on the road and either scrap it or keep exploring. The only logical place to keep it apart from the rest of the tuning was on strings 9 and 10, so that's where they went until I got off the road and could take the guitar to Shot to change.

As it turned out, I liked the sound but a recording session with Ray was scheduled before I could get to Shot, so I recorded "You Took Her Off My Hands" with the strings in the 9th and 10th positions. Had I been playing a road guitar with a changeable mechanism, I would have originally structured the tuning as it is today and the bottom string controversy would have never existed.
[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 08 July 2002 at 02:00 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 8 Jul 2002 7:43 pm

Back in the 50's I was using the Eddie Alkire tuning,no pedal. It had many open cords Using string groups,1,2,4. and 1,3,5. strings you would go from a I to a V cord on the same fret it had many string groups. after pedal steels got going there was no need to use the Alkire tuning any more. Joe

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 9 Jul 2002 6:33 pm

Anybody notice this topic started a year ago?

------------------
Lee, from South Texas

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 10 Jul 2002 1:09 am

I did notice it was an old thread. It may be a different year but it still has some invaluable information!

Thanks for popping in, Buddy!

One other question: When and who added knee levers first?

------------------
My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Jul 2002 1:58 am

Is there going to be a written test here ? I hope not, I got lost way up at the top somewhere..
tp