Newbie Question...10 or 12?

Graeme Smart · Post by **Graeme Smart** » 21 Apr 2005 1:04 pm

Just joined the forum after gaining lots of info in the last two months. That's the time I've been playing steel, and it's been awesome. However, it's time for me to upgrade from my little starter bud. Even though I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be using E9 most of the time, I'm wondering if I should be thinking about buying a U-12. I'm working hard, progressing fairly quickly I'm told, and don't want to shortchange myself. Question is, how confusing will it be to go from playing ten to twelve strings? If it's not too bad, I think I should do it now rather than later. Is there any drawback to the U-12? Like, are two necks better for any reason?
Thanks very much for any help you can give me.
grae

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Apr 2005 2:18 pm

In my opinion, the primary reason for going to 12 strings is to get low notes. If the range of the 10 string E9th with B as the lowest string doesn't frustrate you, I don't see any real reason to go to 12 strings or to a double 10. There are many top professional steel players who have never recorded a single note below that low B.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Apr 2005 3:04 pm

Graeme,
No matter what choice you make in a pedal steel (e.g., which change goes where; what kind of strings; what brand of gear) there are pros and cons that must be weighed on an INDIVIDUAL basis. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for others.

My primary reason for going to 12 strings was not solely for the range altho, like b0b, it IS important to me. I wanted the entire range of interval selections found on both the E9 and C6 necks to be available all the time.

I personally prefer a single neck 12 string pedal steel on a double frame with my modification of the E9/B6 universal tuning and levers laid out in a very precise way. The longer you play the more you'll realize what your own preferences are. Don't be buffaloed by someone trying to impose his/her preferences on you before you have a chance to try both ways. It has taken me nearly 30 years to determine what I like best and I'm still refining those choices further. It is a very personal instrument. Best of luck with your decision. I invite you to take a look at my website (see below) for some ideas on the 12 string universal tunings. If you would like to discuss further, don't hesitate to drop me an email.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 21 Apr 2005 4:20 pm

Also, somewhere in your decision making process I would suggest you read this article from Reece Anderson.

Then if you ever get to hear him play, that should put the icing on the cake!!!

Good Luck!! [This message was edited by Sidney Malone on 21 April 2005 at 05:21 PM.]

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 21 Apr 2005 4:30 pm

Every player is different,i had Bruce,Zum steel to build me a 12 in 1984.I never learned to like it,even thou i played it for 20yrs.i played too many yrs. on 10 string i guess.I just love the 6 8 10 grips ect.studied under Jeff Newman,paterns,ect. playing C6th on E9th.my gripe is,to hard to push pedals,pulling extra strings.just my opinion. farris

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Apr 2005 4:34 pm

Well, my point is that jazz voicings minus the low notes are all there on the E9th. Just listen to Randy Beavers for a while if you don't believe me. And you can always go a bit lower on 10 strings if you adopt a "U-10" approach (lose the D string and add the low G#). I get string orders from folks who do that.

My point is that the primary reason for going to 12 strings is to get some lower notes. The extra two strings are almost always low strings.

Graeme Smart · Post by **Graeme Smart** » 22 Apr 2005 6:44 am

Thanks so much everyone...you have very quickly opened my eyes to several factors I hadn't known of yet. VERY helpful.
grae

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 22 Apr 2005 12:54 pm

Pardon me. I wasn't aware that b0b knew better than I what my primary reason for having played a 12 string for 30 years might be.

I totally, and respectfully, disagree that Randy Beavers or anyone else can duplicate the chord forms and interval patterns of the entire range of C6 pedals and levers on E9. An octave higher or WHATEVER. It just ain't so. If it were nobody would be playing C6.

Another thing I'll submit respectfully that just ain't so: there's no such thing as a 10 string universal. Universal means that both the C6 and E9 open strings and chord voicings are there and there's no way to duplicate the vast majority of the 20 total strings with 10. I realize that Jan Visser has a 10 string tuning he calls a universal, but once one starts to explore how to play 'Raisin' the Dickens', 'Four Wheel Drive', and other classic C6 tunes it will become painfully obvious it just AIN'T THERE.

With the 12-string E9 / B6 tuning, ALL of C6 is there and 90% or more of E9 is as well. I'll grant that the D is not there as an open string, but, with two ways of getting the same note with a pedal or (preferably) a knee lever (lowering E to D on 8 and raising B to D on 9), there are very few phrases that can be played on the 10 string E9 tuning and NONE that can be played (albeit 1/2 step lower) on C6 that can't be duplicated on a U12. If you want to add the Emmons levers in the middle, that's always an option on a S-12 just like on a D-10.

Sorry, b0b, we'll just have to disagree on this one. The chords and voicings Randy, Tommy, and others get out of E9 are beautiful, but they do not duplicate those of C6.

(edited for spelling)
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 22 April 2005 at 01:57 PM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 22 Apr 2005 1:42 pm

FWIW, As fate would have it, I have only pursued playing single neck guitars (on single bodies), and currently have 5 universals of varying pedal/lever configurations, two S8U's, an S10U, and two S12U's, (not one of them the same setup).
I'm personally not too interested in what the "standard" is/was/will be, or what "Universal" means anybody else, or who respectfully disagrees with my take on it, etc.
As a means of trying to find out what everybody is talking about I've implemented many setups over the last 10 years including Larry Bells copedant, Jeff Newmans, Joe Wrights, David Wrights, Carl Dixons, and several other S12U copedants and/or ideas that have been run up and down the flagpole by all kinds of players of all levels.
I've had a total BLAST setting up and trying out all these ideas that are all way cool to me (but could never all exist on one guitar)!
So, having been there an back on the "Universal" thing, I'd have to say...

...Just get a Pro model S10 (or D10 if you plan to play western swing) and be done with it.
Enjoy the next 5-10 years leaning to play with the wide selection of available instructional material that perfectly matches what is at you fingertips.

My point being simply this...
S12U's of any configuration just make it harder for newbies to learn.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 22 Apr 2005 1:51 pm

Dang, Pete
I guess WE'LL just have to disagree too.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 22 Apr 2005 2:18 pm

No problem, Larry.
As I say, "respectfull disagreements" among steel players are completey meaningless.
It's like a repeated punch line in a Monty Python skit....
(in english accent) "I respectfully agree to disagree...

Spam
Spam and Spam
Spam Spam and Spam
Etc...

Just so I understand...
Your recomendation to a newbie in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho is to duplicate your setup?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 Apr 2005 3:03 pm

I really don't think you need 12 or 14 strings to play "jazz". (Neither did Curly!) Low bass strings, like Bobby said, are only used at steel shows and on some instrumental stuff> They're just not popular for regular band use, since they fall too close to bass guitar territory.

So many players today think you need strings and pedals up the waazoo to play this or that, but it's just not true. About 90% of the limitations are in players' minds...not their equipment.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>..Just get a Pro model S10 (or D10 if you plan to play
western swing) and be done with it.
Enjoy the next 5-10 years leaning to play with the
wide selection of available instructional material that
perfectly matches what is at you fingertips.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pete, that about says it all. Wish I had said it!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 22 Apr 2005 3:57 pm

Pete,
I never really made a recommendation. There are many paths to nirvana. I merely described (and, to an extent, defended) mine. I did object to what I perceived as having words put into my mouth.

Graeme is not what I'd call a newbie (even though he refers to himself that way). He has outgrown his student model steel, so he has experience playing a 10 string. I was trying to make the case for 'the road less traveled'. (By the way I'm voting to oust you from the universalists' club)

Your approach is great, as, I believe, is mine. Neither is the way of the majority.

Donny, as I recall, Mr. Chalker played 20-24 strings and had a low A (same note the boo-wah pedal produces) even on the bottom of his 10 string C6 and used it often. I'm not sure where you're coming from on that point. My bottom string is only 1/2 step below the bottom string on your C6 neck and I use it often too. And I play very few steel shows these days.

I guess my point is that going with a pro single 10 is an option, as is adding another neck, but, getting back to my original point, there are more reasons to add lower strings than solely adding range. I am a big fan of classic C6 playing and love to be able to do it on a single neck guitar which is basically tuned to E9. I hope the take home message for Graeme is that there are many options and you'll never really know what's best for you until you try some of them.

Graeme, good luck, my friend. It's a fun ride no matter which roller coaster you choose.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 22 April 2005 at 05:02 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Apr 2005 4:07 pm

I didn't mean to offend or to put words in your mouth, Larry. But we do disagree on this.

I'd like to know, for example, what voicings you can get out of your U-12 excluding the low notes that aren't possible on a reasonably tricked out 10 string E9th. It's an interesting subject, to me anyway.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 22 April 2005 at 07:52 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 22 Apr 2005 7:25 pm

Sure
I'm not talking rocket science here . . . or anything beyond what standard C6 affords

Howzbout a 13b9 chord?
I use it as the second chord in Misty, as one example
On the C neck it can be played with the 5th 6th and 7th pedals. The open chord is D13b9.

I play it as an 8-note 'grab' chord and strings 12 thru 5 are all usable. I use the b9 as a color tone and play
V13 V13b9 IMa7
for the first 3 chords of the tune

So the scale tones I need are something like
1-3-5-7b-9b-(3)-13-1
in G the notes would be
G-B-D-F--G#-(B)-E--G
the top tonic is the first melody note and the 13th is the second

If I were to play it in C it would go like this:
<pre>
5-------6##---------------------1b----------
6-------6##-----6##-------------1-----------
7-------6b------6b--------------1-----------
8-------6b------6bb-(the b9)----1b----------
9-------6-------6---------------1-----------
10------6-------6---------------1-----------
11------6#------6#--------------------------
12------6##-----6##-------------1-----------
--------G13-----G13b9----------CMa7---------
</pre>
for C6, ignore the 'b' on string 8
use P6 to get the 'bb' on string 8
all fret positions would be one fret lower
and, obviously the bottom string is 10 not 12

and it would sound like this
13b9 chord, then 1st 3 chords of 'Misty'

With standard E9, you can get all but the bottom two notes at the 3rd fret (assuming you can lower your 2nd to C# while using your F lever), but I can't figure how you'd get the full 6-note chord and I prefer to have the tonic both on top and bottom, since the tonic is the first melody note. So that would be 7 notes top to bottom.

Chord melody style chords are what I find to be missing on E9. I'm sure there are a bunch of other examples, but this is the first one that came to mind. You can come close on E9 but I can't find a way to play the full 6 or 7 note chord. Maybe you can. I'd be interested.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 22 April 2005 at 08:40 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Apr 2005 10:29 am

Larry Bell (for whom I have great respect) writes: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So the scale tones I need are something like
1-3-5-7b-9b-(3)-13-1
in G the notes would be
G-B-D-F--G#-(B)-E--G
the top tonic is the first melody note and the 13th is the second...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The lowest note on the standard E9th is B on an open string, so you are absolutely correct that you can't get that 8 note chord from an E9th. I think most people would look for the top 6 notes of the chord at the 3rd fret, because it's an altered G7 chord. They'd find: <pre>open fret note
F#
D# 3# G
G#
E
B 3## E
G# 3 B
F#
E 3# G#
D 3 F
B 3 D </pre>This combines the C pedal and F lever, and requires the 2nd string raise that many players today have. More strings would be needed to get the lower notes of the chord, of course, which was my original point.

But the standard C6th pedals make it a lot easier to do go up and down chords like this without skipping strings and changing your grip. That's one of Larry's points, I believe. The technique is considerably more difficult on E9th. This is why the C6th and E9/B6 have one less string in the middle register.

Thanks, Larry, for making me think about this.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Apr 2005 10:54 am

By the way, Larry... For many years I had a 4th pedal that raised my middle G# to A#, an idea I got from Winnie Winston. Using it with the C pedal and F lever would give me all but the low B of your full chord on extended E9th: <pre>open fret note
F#
D#
G#
E
B 6## G
G# 6## E
F#
E 6# B
D 6 G#
B 6 F
G# 6 D
E 6bbb G </pre>The low E to C# on the F lever is also an idea I got from Winnie.[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 24 April 2005 at 11:58 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Apr 2005 5:52 am

You know . . .
my whole idea for the U12 came from Winnie and Reece Anderson. I hadn't even HEARD of Jeff Newman. I was using Bb6 after playing a show with Reece about a year or so after I started playing and had his tuning on the back neck of a D-12 but mostly playing E9. I looked at Winnie's tuning when his book came out and kinda combined that idea (including the D string but adding the B6 changes) with Bb6 and I've been playing that (without the D string) ever since.

What it all boils down to is EITHER YOU CAN PLAY OR YOU CAN'T. What tuning you use is neither here nor there. If you can play, a S-10 E9 with just the A and B pedals will give you a lot of music. If you can't play, a D-14 with 12 pedals and 12 levers still won't be enough.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 April 2005 at 07:39 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Apr 2005 9:03 am

My reccomendation to a newbie all boils down to the fact that there is just a ton more instructional material available for S10/D10 than there is for S12U, and clearer standards for S10/D10 pedal/lever setup and string arrangement exist.

FWIW, I think most players can adapt to any amount of strings (for example 6 or 8 string lap, or 8, 10, 12, or 14 string PSG) rather quickly, so I wouldn't let that decision be a show-stopper should you decide to switch at any time.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 Apr 2005 9:43 am

Graeme, let me try to answer your questions briefly, one at a time.

Is it difficult to switch from 10 string E9 to a 12-string universal? It depends. Many older players who have played 10-string for many years can't make the switch. I played a 10-string student model for about 3 years, and made the switch fairly easily. I didn't use the D string very much, and easily adapted to using a lever for it. The biggest problem was that I visually keyed on the center of the neck width for my string choice and grips. With a 12-string the center switched from between strings 5 and 6 to between strings 6 and 7. I marked the first wound string with a red marking pen for a few weeks until I adapted. Now I key on the first wound string, which is the same for 10 or 12 string.

I tried both 12-string extended E9 and 12-string universal. I found the lower grips of the ext. E9 too complicated. The universal cleared all that up, and in addition gave me the whole 6th-neck world. I fell in love with it immediately, and I believe I have learned more 6th-neck stuff with it than I would have with a double-neck. The 6th neck and 9th necks are related harmonically on a universal in a way they are not on a double-neck. This makes the 6th-neck stuff seem less foreign, and makes it easier to switch back and forth within a song or phrase, in addition to the fact that you don't have to move your hands to another neck.

Are there any drawbacks to U12 compared to a D10? You can always get a couple of more changes out of a D10 you can't get on a uni, if for no other reason than that you can connect the right knee levers to both necks and have them do completely different unrelated things on the two necks. That is about 10% of your pedal and knee changes on either neck. But rather than see that as meaning a uni only has 90% of the changes of a D10, I see that as meaning a uni has 180% of the changes available from note to note, compared to a D10.

How many changes do you really need? Many players play great C6 with no pedals or knees, and many play great without the full 9&8 possible on a fully loaded D10. For me, the extra stuff you get from playing both necks at once far outweighs the few unique changes of a D10 that I can't get. When I play songs like Stormy Monday or My Funny Valentine, I move between the two modes from chord to chord without thinking, and play the changes in a way that would be impossible on any D10. If I can't find easy access to a chord I need in one mode, I instantly have the entire other mode available - that's 180%, not 90%.

It is also true that you can change the tuning of a string on one neck of a D10 without affecting the other neck. Well yes, but how many people really need to change the traditional tunings. I prefer to stick to those tunings so you can use the vast tab and instructional material for them, and can sit down and play other people's guitars, and can watch them and learn from them. I don't mind experimenting with the pedals and knees, but I don't really want to stray from the traditional string tunings.

If all you want to play is traditional country and Western swing, then you will not go wrong with a D10 - that's the instrument these styles were created on. And people like Emmons and Jernigan have adapted the C6 neck to bebop jazz. But if you want to play other types of music like rock, blues and even classical, then you might find, as many of us have, that having the extra three low strings of a uni, and having the two traditional tunings integrated into a single neck and a smaller, lighter instrument are very useful features of a uni. As it's name implies, it is designed to be more universal, and more versatile. But a D10 is also versatile, in different ways, and judging from the top pros, a good player can do well with either approach. It is finally a matter of style and personal preference.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Apr 2005 11:14 am

So Graeme, do you want low notes or not?

Graeme Smart · Post by **Graeme Smart** » 25 Apr 2005 11:37 am

Funny you should ask, Bobby! I was just sitting here wondering that myself...I seem to prefer the higher pitches a lot...in other words, I have to 'remind' myself sometimes during a song to move to the 6-8-10 grip and play 'down there' as well. So it's something I'm working on, as it obviously adds a greater variety of licks and expressions. Do I need more low notes? Not sure. Are things getting clearer as to how to proceed? Not sure. You guys ARE getting all the issues on the table, it appears, and that's certainly helping inform me. But each time I think I know which way to go, something else comes up and I'm not sure again...hahaha.
I must say, though, that I'm really taken by the amount of time you all have spent responding to my question. Your Forum is incredible for its depth of knowledge and willingness to help. I feel like I've joined a Steel Brotherhood here. And frankly, I'm having so much fun playing that I really DON'T feel like a newbie anymore.
Thanks again.
grae

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Apr 2005 11:44 am

Just for perspective, consider that the 10th string, first fret is an octave below middle C. It's written as middle C on guitar music, but guitar is written an octave higher than it sounds.

So really, the question is whether you feel you need low notes more than an octave below middle C. Many people don't, including some of the greatest players like Jerry Byrd and Lloyd Green.

Others, like me and Larry, are positively addicted to the low range of the guitar.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Apr 2005 1:04 pm

Donny, as I recall, Mr. Chalker played 20-24 strings and had a low A (same note the boo-wah pedal produces) even on the bottom of his 10 string C6 and used it often. I'm not sure where you're coming from on that...

I guess what I'm saying is that I have yet to hear anyone with 12 or 14 strings on one neck that impressed me as much as Curly did with 10, using his rather unique C6th tuning. Don't get me wrong, I'd really love to hear one of the 12 string players put out something jazzy like "Big Hits On Big Steel", with that kind of impact, style, and imagination.

Been waitin' 39 years. Hasn't happened yet.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Apr 2005 1:52 pm

I've never owned a D10.

FWIW, I love the low notes and wouldn't want to live without them either.
I own 2 S12U's and have all the standard E9/B6 (and a few non-standard) changes on the low strings.
But I also gig with a S8 Fender 400, 4x0, and people on both sides of the stage comment that they love the sound of that axe! And I find no shortage of stuff to play on that axe in a country band context.
I have a Sierra Crown series S8 5x3, and love playing without the chromatics, as it makes me play alot more in the horizontal plane.

I have also noted that the best S12U players are guys that started on D10, and are at least intermediate level or higher D10 players with a good grip of all the pedal/lever combos and playing positions, as well as a good handle on PSG mechanics.

I think I've heard 'em all in the 5 or so years that I was helping out in the Sierra booth at conventions, but the main "down sides" of the S12U that I heard mostly reported from guys who have tried them (in no specific order), are that...
They don't don't like to hold the knee lever in to play B6th, and they don't like the lever-lock idea either (I love the lock!).

They don't like having standard 6th tuning pedals on knee levers (I personally like having P7 on a knee, thanks Bill Stafford! P6 on a knee is also a popular choice thanks to guys like Larry Bell and Carl Dixon).

They don't like B6th in general cause they can't play the songs that their bands do in C(6th) on B6th cuz they lose the open notes.

They don't like having to skip strings 2 and 3 to get to the top end of their 6th neck (for G on top).

They don't like having their "D on top" on string 2.

They don't like the fact that there is no D string (string 9 on E9).

They don't like that the string 9 C# (with the A pedal down) is out of tune when released from D (using the B to D lever).

They feel that there are intonation issues such that they can never get all the combinations of chords that they like to use, "in tune", on a single neck, and they don't like to use compensators.

They think the changer is over loaded, making it harder to make a change to the E9th without screwing up something on the B6th (and visa-versa), and causing reduced performance in general.

They think the pedals are stiffer (because they are pulling more notes (ie. G# to A on 3, 6, 11).

They don't like that the thicker strings on the low end cause bar chatter on fret 1.

They feel that there is not enough instructional material for S12U.

They think that 10 string pickups "sound better" than 12 string pickups.

They don't like having to use one pickup for both E9 and B6 voicings.

They read a Psalm about "an instrument of 10 strings".

I'm sure I forgot a few.

Oh yeah...
No Pro's play Universals.
and...
All my hero's play D10's.

So, hey... guys...
don't kill the messenger!

(I sence an S12U defender is gonna rip that list apart!)

'Some things for a newbie to concider though... right?

Now...
About Ext. E9...

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 25 April 2005 at 02:55 PM.]