Need Advice: E9 High E (4th) Not Returning to Pitch

Kristian Meisling · Post by **Kristian Meisling** » 3 May 2017 3:37 pm

I need a little help. I have an Emmons LL2 D10 (2001 vintage). For the last few years I have been fighting an irritating problem...the 4th string E does not return to pitch after I activate the "F" lever (E-Eb). The open high E string stays noticeably flat, but returns to correct open pitch if I then operate the "E" lever (E-F) or the C pedal (E-F#). In case it matters, I use a Peterson Digital Strobe Tuner with Jeff Newman's offsets pre-loaded. I have searched the Forum and read what I can find on the subject and I understand it's common problem, and there are a number of possible causes.

(1) I put on a fresh set of George L strings. The guitar was last set up by Bobby Bowman (RIP) and he told me to use Chromatic Nashville string gauges (not Chromatic Tension Balanced). The high E is 0.014. Should I try a heavier gauge 4th string?

(2) I tried tuning the raises first, then the lower...also tried tuning the lower first, then the raises. Raises first wins, but pitch return problem remains. Is there a rule as to which to tune first on split tuning (raises or lowers, or order of pedals/levers)?

(3) When looking at the bottom of the guitar and operating the E-Eb lever, I can see that the 4th string changer at the return spring does not quite return to alignment with others. There is plenty of room to tighten (screw in) the return spring...but I might need guidance on how to disengage it from the pull-rod (and put it back on - do I need a special tool?).

Because the changer is visibly not returning all the way, I conclude that the problem is NOT (a) binding of the pull-rod, (b) pull-rod in the wrong bell-crank hole, or (c) incorrect adjustment of the lever stop. I can push the changer finger back with light pressure.

Finally, I bought the guitar used (from Randy Gilliam) in ~2008 and have never lubricated it. It looks like it has some excess graphite powder around the changer...so perhaps it's been lubricated with a graphite lubricant? I bought a spray can of Tri-Flow, but am terrified of using it for fear of getting it all over the place and ruining the guitar or something else!

I have a recording session later this month and I would love to solve this problem and BE IN TUNE once again!

Finally...I have another E9 guitar...a Remington SD10...and...it has the same problem...which tells me the problem is me. It's time for me to "Cowboy Up", get over my fear of ruining my guitar, and fix it myself. When I lived in Texas there were any number of people I could take it to for a professional tune-up. I now live in Palo Alto, CA, and pedal steel mechanics are as scarce as hens teeth.

I know some of you have forgotten more about pedal steel mechanics than I will ever know. I sure would appreciate some guidance!

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 3 May 2017 3:49 pm

Sure sounds like the return spring just needs to be tightened a little. That should be easy. Just go a half a turn at a time until it's returning as it should. If that doesn't fix it, they you can just loosen the return spring screw the same number of turns that you tightened it. You are very unlikely to damage anything doing this.

You may want to look up the Cosmic Steel website. Cary (don't recall his last name) is in the bay area somewhere and he advertises that he works on steels. Then, of course, there is Tom Bradshaw in Concord. He's been working on steels for decades.

You are not alone in the wilderness.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 May 2017 5:41 pm

Give it a shot of Triflow or equivalent at the pivot points. This should be almost annual. It might be just the pivot being gunked.
If your guitar has adjustable return springs, they should be tight/strong enough to return a lower and hold it there when you raise.

Kristian Meisling · Post by **Kristian Meisling** » 3 May 2017 9:28 pm

Thanks Paul and Lane.

I "looked under the hood" and it appears that I can only adjust the return springs by releasing them from the pull-rod, turning them, and reattaching to pull-rod. The head for the screw that holds the spring is "trapped" behind the end-plate...not accessible...on the Emmons LL2.

I will take the steel outside and try to give the changer pivots a shot of Tri-Flow without making a mess...wipe it down and see if that does the trick. If that doesn't work, I will tackle the spring adjustment.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your suggestions. I'll report back...

Kristian Meisling · Post by **Kristian Meisling** » 4 May 2017 9:05 pm

Reporting back. I applied Tri-Flow to the changer, flushed pretty liberally...managed not to make a mess. It did not work. E-Eb still does not return to pitch.

I am going to adjust the return spring next. It appears that I have to remove the spring from the changer...with a pair of needle-nosed pliers? I am concerned that I will damage the return spring...is there a special tool that I need to get?

Am I missing something? The return spring screw on the Emmons LL2 is behind the end-plate. I cannot access the screw heads without taking the changer out of the cabinet.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 4 May 2017 9:17 pm

I wonder if you can remove the ENDPLATE rather than the changer

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 4 May 2017 9:22 pm

Kristian,
I read some where Ron Lashley didn't like the way that the adjustable return spring screws looked so he hid them. To check if that is actually the prob, when the note comes back flat, reach under from the end plate end and find that finger and pull it back (to your right)See if the note goes up to pitch. If it does, yes you'll have to tighten that return spring a few turns. If not, just bump the f lever or tap the C pedal a little and like magic, you'll be back in tune. It's kind of a common problem called hysteresis. RP

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 4 May 2017 9:23 pm

On second thought, what happens when you push the 4th string lowering scissor in an unused hole, and see if it returns to the stop bar?
Lower return spring problems on LeGrandes are rare-ish. I'm betting on a binding in the pull train.

Michael Dulin · Post by **Michael Dulin** » 5 May 2017 5:21 am

Also check the roller nut on the tuner end. If these are not free it can cause a string not to return. Lubrication is required here also.MD

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 5 May 2017 7:09 am

He says that he can see the scissor not returning to the stop bar.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 5 May 2017 7:37 am

Maybe you've got a string end lodged in there someplace.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 5 May 2017 7:56 am

Reach under the guitar or flip it over and see if, after you have actuated your F lever, your lower scissors is not pulled completely back to the stop bar.

If so, then the return spring is likely the problem. I'm not all that familiar with LG's, so I can't advise on how to tighten it up.

Otherwise, you may have binding somewhere, or your lube procedure is just taking some time to take effect.

Kristian Meisling · Post by **Kristian Meisling** » 5 May 2017 10:20 am

Thanks again. I am going to lubricate the rollers today and see if that helps. Since I have not been lubing the guitar, I should do it anyway. I will also take a look at endplate and see if it comes off to allow access to the head of the return spring screw. I would have assumed endplate should not be removed unless strings were off guitar, as it feels like it would be part of the "structure" of the guitar, but maybe that's not the case. I'll check it out. It looks like I can tighten the return spring by rotating the spring on the fixed return spring screw (does not require endplate removal), but does require taking spring off the changer finger, which scares me a bit. Any advice on how to remove spring (under tension?) from finger, and put it back? I am assuming at this point that I am going to need to tighten return spring. I will also take a look at the binding issue again...

So appreciate the sage advice...you guys are awesome!!!!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 5 May 2017 10:32 am

I'd recommend using needlenose vise grips (or other brand of locking jaw pliers), and be prepared to fight it. It's a stout spring.
I'd detune the string to take tension off it.

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 5 May 2017 10:43 am

An Emmons LL2 that the return spring tension can't be accessed and adjusted through the end plate with a small phillips head screw driver? The end plate has to be pulled off? It requires vice grips? Well, who would have thought!

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 5 May 2017 11:09 am

This is not a difficult an operation. You do want to loosen the string as Lane suggested or the finger will snap back when the spring is pulled off, but the springs slip right off and back on with just a normal set of pliers or you can use a small slotted screwdriver and simply lever it over the end of the scissor arm. Easy. If the spring is tight on the screw just stick the screw driver in one end of the screw adjacent to the end plate.

The threads are very coarse so one turn moves the spring quite a bit. Turn the spring clockwise perhaps one turn, re-connect and re-tune the string, repeat as needed. It's a simple 3-4 minute operation. That doesn't mean it will solve the problem, which may of course be caused by something else entirely.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 5 May 2017 11:12 am

Dick, I thought it was odd, and then I went looking at the pics in the for sale section of the forum.
The only APPARENT way to adjust them with the endplate on the guitar is to remove the endplate, and the only apparent way to adjust them with the endplate on is to remove the spring from the finger.

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 5 May 2017 11:17 am

Lane, point me to the pictures, cause that is unbelievable. I can not conceive of a builder doing that, not and stay in business. Oh... That's right!

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 5 May 2017 11:17 am

The pic above is a '98 LL-II. It's simple.

Kristian Meisling · Post by **Kristian Meisling** » 5 May 2017 1:33 pm

Yippee! I adjusted the return spring on the 4th string now faithfully return to pitch after E-Eb lower.

Many thanks to Paul, Lane, Ron, Michael, Erv, Jerry, Dick, and Ian for their great suggestions...and thanks to Bob...this forum is a beautiful thing!

(1) I oiled the changer pivots with Tri-Flow - problem remained
(2) I oiled the roller nuts with Tri-Flow - problem remained
(3) I checked for string end lodged in changer - found none
(4) I adjusted the return-spring for increased tension

Here are the steps:
I loosened tension on 4th string, flipped guitar over and put in case, pulled return spring off changer finger with needle-nose pliers (came off easily), grabbed the loop end of return spring and turned it clockwise on it's screw about 1.5 turns (required a couple of progressive steps), put the spring loop back on the changer finger with needle-nosed pliers, flipped guitar over and tuned up 4th string - voila!

As Ian said, I had to put a flat-head screw driver between the screw head and the endplate to keep the screw from rotating while turning spring with needle-nose pliers. Ian was right took 3-4 minutes. And as Ian said...it was easy.

Paul - thanks for suggestions on local folks that could help me with future issues. I know Tom Bradshaw (he's a great guy).

Ron - I have been bumping the E lever for years as a workaround - it has been driving me hyster(esis)ical. But in the final analysis it was not hysteresis, but insufficient tension on the return spring. I am now wondering if the return spring can "creep" on the screw over time (by the screw rotating - the screw head is not fixed and can rotate!)...it definitely was further out than the rest.

Dick - Believe it. On the Emmons LL2 (at least my vintage) the endplate covers the return-spring screw heads. Obviously the method described above works just fine. I agree it's odd...I sincerely doubt that is the reason they went out of business...perhaps a contributing factor...LOL (but I am not laughing because it's so sad).

I am so pleased to have my "E" back! AND I learned a few things, and feel less "skeered" to tackle other technical problems as they arise. And I'll apply my new-found skills to my Remington SD10 next.

Thank you all so much for being there and helping out a fellow steeler. Hope something good happens to each and every one of you!

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 5 May 2017 2:06 pm

Did you remove the roller nuts and axle when you lubed them?

Kristian Meisling · Post by **Kristian Meisling** » 5 May 2017 3:15 pm

No, David, I did not. I simply sprayed a little Tri-Flow on the axle between the rollers, assuming that it would penetrate. I just put a fresh set of string on the guitar, and did not want to make the sacrifice. Your suggestion is (obviously) a very good one.

Next time I change strings (I will do it after my recording session) I will take them all off, disassemble the roller nut and axle, clean, reassemble and lubricate. I am sure this is long overdue, and I think I can handle this little project.

My first guitar (1974-ish) was a ZB-Custom student model...when I took all the strings off that guitar all at once, the rods would fall out! javascript:emoticon(':lol:') So I generally change strings one at a time...but obviously I need to change my ways and do a better job of lubricating and servicing my guitar.

I am sure the changer would benefit from a complete disassembly, cleaning, and lube...but I think that is still beyond my abilities right now...maybe some day.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 5 May 2017 3:34 pm

Glad you solved the issue. Nothing more frustrating than a tuning issue that can't be found. Nothing more satisfying than investigating and solving the problem yourself. One usually gets a good education in the process.

It can be daunting, but there's almost nothing that can't be resolved on modern pedal steels as long as they're in relatively decent repair.

Good luck in the future and happy pickin'.

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 6 May 2017 4:44 am

If I may make a couple more minor suggestions; 1) Upon removal of the roller nuts, I normally clean any residue thoroughly from the axle and buff it lightly with steel wool to remove any small imperfections. Then lube it by holding the axle in a vertical position, placing the tip of the lube nozzle on one end allowing a small drop or two of lube to run the length of the axle before reinstalling the roller nuts..2) While changing strings I would recommend rotating each roller nut a quarter turn or so before installing the new string. This may prevent the string from riding constantly in the same location possibly resulting in the groove becoming deeper and a buzz developing....Hope that this information proves useful somehow.

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Need Advice: E9 High E (4th) Not Returning to Pitch

Need Advice: E9 High E (4th) Not Returning to Pitch

return problem

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