Bb6th tuning, where's the F lever?

Kiyoshi Osawa · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I can't seem to find any combination that would do what this lever does for E9th. Then again I might just be losing perspective from having to transpose everything, but the copedants I see from Reece Anderson or David Wright don't seem to have this.

Am I missing something?

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I'm sure David will chime in, but I know he did not have an F lever (raising E's to F) on his Bb6th axe.
I asked him about it at a convention after trying out his steel for a few minutes.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

David Wright's tuning is here. RL shifts the tuning into something like an Eb9. From there, RR2 acts like the F lever on an E9th.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Pedal 9 goes Bb to B

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

The LKR with a half stop can sub as this change. I think this is the way Reece plays that change. He doesn't have the change as it is on the E9th (8th string raise), But you could put it on if you wanted to. You may have to give up something or have staggered levers to get it. Some E9th players lower the F# to F to get this change.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

b0b, that'd be the LL2 which raises the D strings to E.....JH in Va.

------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

I believe b0b ment LL2. Probably only a typo.
By holding RL (raising 8 & 4 to D#) LL2 would function as the E9 F-lever, raising strings 8 & 4 a halftone.

Bengt Erlandsen

Kiyoshi Osawa · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I don't know how I missed it in David Wright's tuning!... Doh!

Still, Reece Anderson's 'cope' doesn't have it... I'll have to look carefully at that LKR on there to understand how that can substitute for the F lever.

I guess that's another Guitar map session for me!

thanks for all the replies,

------------------
Kiyoshi
------

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

No, I was talking about the LKR on Reece's tuning. Lower the F(7th string) with a half stop.

[This message was edited by bob drawbaugh on 14 April 2005 at 04:53 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jerry is correct
The 9th tuning is Eb9
The open Bb6 note is D (the third of that scale)
Raising the root of the tonic note of the 9th tuning is the 'F' lever function

Therefore, it's D when the tuning is Bb6, Eb when the tuning is Eb9, and E when the 'F' lever is used.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

Larry, that is true. But the question was how does Reece get this change on his Bb6th. One way is to lower his LKR 1/2 tone. This would be his 7th string, or the fifth pedal. I have both on my B6th/E9th and raise the 8th string or lower the 7th string. But to answer the question Reece does not have this change on the 8th string and on David's new guitar I don't think he does, or at least I didn't see it on his guitar in Dallas. I hope this helps.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Bob,
That's really not a replacement for the F lever. True, it does give the same note, but the 'gist' of many applications of the F lever on E9 is that it raises the tonic. The F to E is more similar to P5 on C6 (where G is lowered to F#). I sometimes use the F lever instead of the Eb lever when playing out of the P5 position.

I guess that it's semantics in a way and gives a similar (but not identical) result, but I don't see it as a replacement for the F lever. Just my opinion. David Wright does have the actual F lever functionality by raising D to E. I'm pretty sure Junior Knight has the same function on his setup.

Same is true for the C pedal. It's just not Reece's style, but Junior can play anything an E9 player can play in the same way.

I hope I'm not picking nits here, but I see it as two different ways of approaching the same universal tuning. Once again, it's just my take on it.

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 April 2005 at 06:06 PM.]

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

Larry right again. I did say It could sub for this change not replace it. Weldon, Zane are just two that I can recall that lower the F# on their E9th instead of raising the 8th string. I set at Juniors guitar (Bb6th) in Dallas with no C pedal or F lever and he could still play anything he wanted to.

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Hi All,
Just now reading this...I do not have the "F" lever...I did at one time, but not anymore...and your right Larry.JR.. can play and sound just like e9th on Bb6.

------------------

M.S.A.
M.S.A. Millennium
S-12 9 & 6
Bb is where it's at!
Peavey-2000-PX-300

David's Web Page

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Thanks for the info Bob, but I'm really confused how Junior would get the same relative pulls without the C pedal and F lever. The copedent at the Carter website shows clearly the E to F and C pedal equivalents -- right where you'd expect them -- on LKL and P3 respectively.

I'M SO CONFUSED.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Kiyoshi Osawa · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Hi David,

how are you? Don't know if you remember me, but we exchanged e-mails because I bought a Thomas U12 that used to belong to you.

So do you have some other change that functions in the same way? or have you found you just don't need to have that option?

The thing is that's one of the changes I use the least. And when I do use it, it's in the traditional E9th context. So I'm sort of doing this hipothetical mental excersice of removing all but the most necesary changes, and see how few pedals and levers I can have and still acheive as many MUSICAL options. (that is, chords and scales and such, and not this or that particular lick).

------------------
Kiyoshi
------

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

Larry,Juniors new U12 MSA Must not have the same set up as his Carter did. His D10 I'm sure has all the standard E9th changes. I played his MSA at Dallas and It has almost the same tuning as Reece's guitar. I think there may have been one pull different. Maybe David could tell us for sure or if Junior is out their he could. But, it was neat to watch Junior lock horns with Johnny Cox and play some of the greatest E9th stuff I have ever heard from any D10 player, all on a Bb6th tuning. Way cool

[This message was edited by bob drawbaugh on 15 April 2005 at 01:18 PM.]

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

Kiyoshi, I think Larry has done that excersice for you. I think his basic 6X5 set up is about as lean as you could go and still play 95% of the E9th and C6th stuff. Maybe a 5X5 setup, but that would be to lean for me. Now you could ditch your current setup and go with the Zane Beck tuning, now that's lean a 4x5 setup, and Zane played anything he wanted to on this setup. Now back to this Bb6th F lever thing.....

Kiyoshi Osawa · From: Mexico City, Mexico

lol, yeah, I guess I'm drifting from my own topic! but in my twisted logic, it's sort of related.

There's a pretty popular topic from a few years back about how important the F lever is. Some guys said that if they only had 1 lever, it would be that F lever!

I really don't use it that much personally, but then again, I've really only been playing for 3 and a half years. And more recently only about a year on the universal. So I'm sure I'd eventually find many uses for it.

But since I saw that Bb6 guys don't have it even on their guitars, I figured if I asked why they don't have it, It would help me see why I DO have it

BTW. On my guitar, P6 WITHOUT the E Lever does the same thing as the F lever on the top strings.

------------------
Kiyoshi
------

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Lets drift together here, Kiyoshi

You are lucky if the F you get on P6 is actually in tune. Chances are relatively slim if you tune the change to offset the Eb lever to get a perfect E that you will also get a perfect F. But what a 'perfect F' actually is depends on how you tune. I lower E to D on a knee lever (8th string) and let off the Eb lever to get P6 (for MANY different reasons -- described on my website), so I think I'll keep my F lever.

A lot of players play E9 without the C pedal, opting to raise E to F# (4th string) on a lever. This would not work for me, since I play a LOT of fast single string stuff using the C pedal. A lever is just not fast enough for my usage.

Different players demand different characteristics from their guitars. Some like a long, easy pedal throw, while others prefer short and quick. Some use a lot of half stops, while others prefer to use separate pedals or levers.

This is a wonderful, personalizable instrument. I like the fact that you can customize the feel and changes to suit your needs.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Kiyoshi Osawa · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Actually, what got me thinking about all this was your idea of putting P6 on a lever.

But that's one too many levers for me! Darn it! I should grow an extra leg or two. That would probably do it. I'll get in touch with Dr. Moreau and let you know...

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

I also like the fact that there are very generous people like Larry Bell who take the time to help old fogeys like me out in a time of need. Thanks Larry. Killer website folks. You haven't seen it, your missing the very best in universal theory.

phred

------------------
"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Good post, and thanks Larry for your input.

Back in the late 60's I had Reece's Bb6 tuning on my D12 MSA. It is a very versatile and terrific tuning. If it was moved down to A6, it would be more useful for the players. More relative to and familiar with E9 A and B pedals, etc....al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Kiyoshi....Sorry if I appeared to be unresponsive. I have been in California and just returned to find your question.

The third pedal on my Bb6th will provide that which is normally found on E9th with the "A" pedal and the raised "E's" knee lever.

To accomplish this on E9th, you must move up three frets and engage, on the Bb6th you move up 5 frets and engage my 3rd pedal.

When doing so on E9th and playing your major intervals from top to bottom, the top notes will transpose from a 3rd to a 5th, a 1 to a 3rd, a 5th to a 1, and a 3rd to a 1.

On the Bb6th when playing the major intervals from top to bottom they are 5th to a 1,(when adding my RKR) 3rd to a 5th, 1 to a 3rd, and 5th to a 1.

Thank you for the question.

[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 18 April 2005 at 03:31 PM.]

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic