Half step down

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 15 Apr 2017 10:04 am

About 30 minutes before a local gig I got a text that stated we were going to be playing one half tone down. it had been mentioned casually several weeks before, but now we were going live. All went well, and playing in the Keys of A(G#) and E(D#) were interesting.
Sure the guitar, bass and fiddle all tuned down a step. I did not want to tune down as I thought my pulls would be off. The drummer didn't change but he is on time and always out of tune.
I thought Buck recorded like this but I was not certain if he did it live.
Has anyone else had to do this? I am about to do another gig with them tonight.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 15 Apr 2017 12:16 pm

Yes Buck and them played 1/2 tone down Live. I played quite a bit with the derailers back before Tony left and they also tuned a 1/2 tone down and I did NOT; just like Tom Brumley did NOT..ha.
Ricky

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 15 Apr 2017 12:24 pm

We used to do that with Dwight. Everything was tuned down, including the steel & the fiddle. We did it to save night after night stress on DY's voice...it was a long tour.
A bunch of tours, actually...
I was playing keys, and inside a baby grand shell I had a MIDI controller, so I was able to shift it a half step and play in the "normal" keys. But, it made things interesting on the B3 & accordion. Lots of Eb, Ab, F# & B...
And yes, Buck also tuned down live.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 16 Apr 2017 12:01 am

Poco did too.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 16 Apr 2017 1:21 am

Well, I got caught out by Poco. A band I was playing with told me to learn Just For Me And You. So I played along to YouTube (clearly in Ab) but when I turned up they were playing it in A, which threw me a bit as I was still very green (as opposed to just green

)

Darrell Criswell · Post by **Darrell Criswell** » 16 Apr 2017 3:58 pm

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 16 Apr 2017 6:20 pm

Several reasons for this excellent question:

1. I do not have a 'ing clue.
2. Buck was cool.
3. Although the band had been together for 12 years they are still in their late thirties.
4. It is allegedly easier to sing. (No scientific evidence, only testimonial.)
5. They love the steel guitar player.
6. They wanted to test the accuracy of their electronic tuners.

Any other suggestions?

Darrell Criswell · Post by **Darrell Criswell** » 16 Apr 2017 6:29 pm

Jerry Douglas said Scruggs and Flatt tuned to 444.5

Darrell Criswell · Post by **Darrell Criswell** » 16 Apr 2017 6:34 pm

I found this strange justification for tuning to 444 at least for harp:

I have chosen to use the 444Hz calibration because of the understanding I have come to out of the Hebrew text of the book of Numbers â€“ Chapter 7 and Psalms 119. I have that teaching available on YouTube â€“ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqSf1L2dxUQ

Because I find these frequencies presented in the ancient scriptures, I have great confidence in them and their ability to affect our lives. The most important frequency that comes out of these 6 that are found in the scriptures is the 528Hz or C note (if you use the 444Hz calibration). Much study and experimentation have been done with this frequency â€“ from Emotoâ€™s work on healing water and frozen water crystal structures, to DNA repair by genetic researchers using this frequency; and others as well. The 528Hz frequency has been given the name, â€œMiracle Frequencyâ€, â€œHealing Frequencyâ€, â€œCreative Frequencyâ€ and others reflecting its amazing qualities.

If you use the 432Hz as your calibration, you do not achieve any of these scriptural frequencies in any of the harmonizing notes of the scale you would then produce. The notes produced are actually flat from the standardized tuning. In using the 444Hz calibration the notes are slightly sharp. Interestingly, most professional singers naturally sing slightly sharp. I believe that this is another evidence that the 444Hz calibration is more accurate because this seems to reflect that their DNA is actually telling them to sing sharp or into the 444Hz area. Before I understood these frequencies, I would tune my harp sharp because it just sounded better to me. Now I know why.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 16 Apr 2017 7:01 pm

I would not dispute Jerry Douglas' statement, however in my experience, Flatt & Scruggs tuned all over the place, up, down and somewhere in the vicinity of 440. In the days before tuners, they may possibly have tuned up with whoever got their instrument out of the case first.

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 16 Apr 2017 7:11 pm

Sorry, I am not into numerology. I believe my A is just north of 440, at 440.2. My favorite number is 78, The only biblical number I know is 18. Stands for life. "letter HAY and letter YUD in Ashkenazi. Everything else is mere coincidence, like the fiddle player shows up late and leaves early for another gig. How does the harp sound in G#?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 16 Apr 2017 8:50 pm

The concept of "cycles per second" (Hz) - or even the time interval of 1 second as we know it - had not yet been invented in ancient times. The idea that 444 Hz is somehow "Biblical" is pure BS.

The Goodman Brothers (Frank and Billy) are friends of mine. At one point they did a duo album and I played on a couple of cuts. They tuned their guitars down a half step for the entire project. It was no problem except that their chord charts had the wrong chords on them and I had to transpose on the fly. Love those guys!

About a year later I did a show with them and they played the songs in normal tuning.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Apr 2017 4:50 am

My personal feeling is that a steel guitar needs to be re-scaled to tune down 1/2 step (+1 string gauge increment).

Poco got carried away; their piano was de-tuned a half-step in the early 80's. That's a loss of many pounds of tension.
Playing on slack strings, I think one won't get the tone (brightness) out of the guitar--any guitar.

However, John Ely, in his string gauge chart, says:

An Inexact Science
A final note on this subject. It is not always possible to find a great selection of string gauges at your local music store. If you have to use a string that is one or two gauges smaller or larger than the recommended gauge range, you're still going to be okay. This is especially true for the larger wound strings. Any string over .030w can cover a wider range of pitches than the chart would indicate, so despair not if you're missing a few key string gauges and can find a reasonable substitute.

So I could be wrong, but it's a good excuse for changing keys with the bar and not at the keyhead.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 17 Apr 2017 8:52 am

It's sort of a crapshoot on the wound strings. Often the core wire (which determines the tension) will be the same on adjacent gauges. The only way to be sure is to check them with a micrometer.

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 17 Apr 2017 10:44 am

Lets just stop this madness....!!!!..LOL
Tune to 440 or drop it a whole step...!!

Bill Moran · Post by **Bill Moran** » 17 Apr 2017 11:34 am

I tuned my guitar once .

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 17 Apr 2017 11:48 am

Mine was tuned when I got it.

Jon Alexander · Post by **Jon Alexander** » 17 Apr 2017 1:49 pm

For what it's worth,tuning down to adapt to the band leaves the use of open string playing available in those keys if that's a concern.If you're not all that familiar with the band/material it may help cut down confusion.The bands I've seen do this still call out keys in A,not A flat,etc..They are basically calling out fret positions.Tuning down a half step did not affect intonation/moves on a Sho-Bud Professional in any way.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 17 Apr 2017 10:59 pm

I had a Carter S10 specifically set up for C6th, and I ended up always tuning down to Bb, using the samce C6th strings. It was a REALLY trebly guitar and the main reason I did it was to cut down on the "shiny" tone and get more "stringy" and "woody" tone. It worked fine; it was also kinda neat to never, ever break strings any more. I was surprised how easy it was and that it even worked so well. But nowadays I'm mostly playing in A6th but with really fat strings. It works too. I've read that Jerry Byrd used exactly the same gauge strings for like, ALL his unwound strings? Quite a few of us think THAT must've worked OK too...

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 18 Apr 2017 6:11 am

Mickey Adams wrote:Lets just stop this madness....!!!!..LOL
Tune to 440 or drop it a whole step...!!

I'm with Mickey, why in the world would a band want to tune down half step just to save the singers voice. There is a band here that tunes down half step for the singers voice, duh. Sure as heck makes it hard on fiddle players. Doesn't bother me on steel. I'm just old, LOL.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 18 Apr 2017 7:27 am

So do you tune down, Henry, or let it ride?

The singers get the big bucks, I guess.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 18 Apr 2017 8:10 am

Charlie McDonald wrote:So do you tune down, Henry, or let it ride?

The singers get the big bucks, I guess.

No, I don't tune down and wouldn't ever even think of it on steel and can't understand anyone doing it. If I'm playing fiddle, I would almost have to because I can't imagine playing right or Wrong or Too Old To Die Young in F#. I think it takes away from the sound also to tune down.

I heard Buck Owens did it to establish the Bakersfield sound but don't know why he couldn't have done it playing 440. Just me I guess. And by the way, C# isn't a key, LOL.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 18 Apr 2017 8:39 am

Many singers tune down as they grow older, like Roger McGuinn. The song is in F# but with the G- chord voicings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bzCZdB3dT4
He sings pretty high, tho'.

Jeremy Steele · Post by **Jeremy Steele** » 18 Apr 2017 9:07 am

Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughan both tuned down a half step...in Stevie Ray's case it may have had something to do with the VERY heavy gauge strings he used (his high E was a .13).

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 18 Apr 2017 11:52 am

Henry Matthews wrote:Sure as heck makes it hard on fiddle players.

The fiddle player tuned down as well. Second gig went well, though playing in "A" or "E", or "D" was strange. I had to look too much. C,F and G were easier. Thought I miss the old F, in both position and sound.