D10 or UNIVERSAL

Harry Williams · Post by **Harry Williams** » 26 Jan 2017 2:07 pm

It's worth reading Maurice Anderson's article on the subject:

http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

For myself having a Uni is a no-brainer - only one neck and fewer strings to replace and one great big tuning. I can read any tab for either E9 or C6 on one 12-string uni neck. That said, if you are reading C6 tab on a uni (Newman set-up), you have to place your bar one fret higher to play true.

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 27 Jan 2017 9:33 am

It is also worth check out, the course Jeff Newman has out on the Uni E9th/B6th. He really gives a lot of information. I think he was the Master of the Universal Tuning, and he said you lose nothing. I am not a good player on any steel, but have several. The Carter U-12 I have really fascinates me. As having major back problems and 2 surgeries, I don't move any, they just stay in my one bedroom. Had an Encore on order, had to finally cancel it do to my back. I sure hated it, but will just play with my StageOne more. Just play what you like.

Quentin Hickey · Post by **Quentin Hickey** » 6 Apr 2017 4:17 pm

Do some of you uni players have a change for your two top strings so you get the true tunning the same as a standard C6? I would miss having these strings the most for playing licks in 6th mode

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 6 Apr 2017 4:29 pm

I play D10...only because I didn't know any better years ago when I started,,,

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 6 Apr 2017 4:33 pm

Quentin, not really sure I understand your question. I never played C6th, and just started the E9th/B6th, 8-9 months ago. What I do play, I don't really know the difference in. I do know I really enjoy it.

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 6 Apr 2017 4:36 pm

Damir, I'll bet you do a great job, E9th or B6th. I know it has opened a lot of doors for me, and I am a no player, just an old die hard, who keeps trying.

Thiel Hatt · Post by **Thiel Hatt** » 6 Apr 2017 5:03 pm

My D10 has 4 floor pedals and 6 knee levers on the E9th and my C6th has 6 pedals and 5 knee levers. I also Have an S12 with the Universal set up with 8 Floor pedals and 10 knee levers.The D10 has a few changes that I couldn't crowd onto the S12. My preference is still the D10. I learned the C6th before I got into the E9th, but now the E9th gets the most use. So to each his own. There isn't a right or wrong way to go. Do you know that there are some persons who actually don"t like Peanut Butter, can you imagine that?

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 6 Apr 2017 5:24 pm

Jim Reynolds wrote:Quentin, not really sure I understand your question. I never played C6th, and just started the E9th/B6th, 8-9 months ago. What I do play, I don't really know the difference in. I do know I really enjoy it.

and that is what is all about my friend....

Tom Cooper · Post by **Tom Cooper** » 6 Apr 2017 5:50 pm

I really enjoyed my U12 for certain situations, but I finally sold it for various reasons. I loved the extended bass range but hated the chromatic strings in the way. D10 just felt better for me. U12 was great to experiment with but I didn't want to stay there. Everything was so crammed together I felt clostrophibic. I got fed up with adjusting it all the time and just said that's it. Going back to D10. It was a great steel, MSA lacquer. But I went back to Legrande.

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 6 Apr 2017 6:15 pm

I guess they have a couple different 12's. I have the E9th/B6th Universal that Jeff Newman used. So far I have really enjoyed it, and can play anything on it, I did on the doubles. It lighter and have never had an adjustment problem, staying in tune and sounds amazing. It is a Carter, and being 76 years old, and 170 lbs, need I say more. Just play and enjoy.

Quentin Hickey · Post by **Quentin Hickey** » 6 Apr 2017 6:32 pm

Jim sorry I'm havvihaving a hard timw trying to explain this. Is it possible to get a complete traditional string interval running on a 12 string. You only get the bottom 8 strings in 6th mode but is there a way to get all 10 And go back to your regular E9 tunning?

There hopefully that made more sense lol.

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 6 Apr 2017 6:43 pm

One question. Do you have Jeff Newman DVD and this lesson on the Universal.? If not, get it, it will clear so much up for you. It only seems hard if you played a D-10 for sometime, then there is a big change in the pedals and strings, well worth the change in my opinion. Just mine.

Quentin Hickey · Post by **Quentin Hickey** » 6 Apr 2017 6:54 pm

I've played it before Jim. I fully understand it. I just want to know if some players have made up they're own copedant changes to get all 10 strings on board rather than the bottom 8. Not sure if you've ever played a D10 but if you have than you would know that going to a u12 from a d10 You loose the two top stings of your C6 and ninth string of your E9.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 7 Apr 2017 4:44 am

I think the Excel 12 string is a great invention.

Full 10 string E9th including the low D string. And two bass strings added as a bonus.

Full original G E C A G E C A F C open C6 tuning plus the more recent D added on top and another chromatic string on top. No need to play in an open B tuning base.

Only 12 strings, nothing left out of the D-10 tunings and extra strings to boot. Absolutely superior to the universal 12 string approach.

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012%2 ... yless.html

Quentin Hickey · Post by **Quentin Hickey** » 7 Apr 2017 5:05 am

Greg Cutshaw wrote:I think the Excel 12 string is a great invention.

Full 10 string E9th including the low D string. And two bass strings added as a bonus.

Full original G E C A G E C A F C open C6 tuning plus the more recent D added on top and another chromatic string on top. No need to play in an open B tuning base.

Only 12 strings, nothing left out of the D-10 tunings and extra strings to boot. Absolutely superior to the universal 12 string approach.

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012%2 ... yless.html

Wow Greg that is amazing!! I am going to your site to check that out now!! It's amazing how he engineered the changer and compensatory on that guitar to be able to do all of that amd have all of the strings and changes to stay in tune!!

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 7 Apr 2017 12:56 pm

Yes, Quenten, I have played a D-10, I still like the U-12, but what Greg is saying is great. This guy does know his stuff. Never met Greg, but have been to his web many time. Lots of good information.

Harry Williams · Post by **Harry Williams** » 7 Apr 2017 2:06 pm

As they say there are many ways to skin a cat, and for instruments we grow to like what works for us.

However there is an argument to have a more-or-less standard tuning / copedant for the U-12 simply so that teaching materials and tabulatures can be traded back and forth. With TABs where the copedant is too unusual I'll make an effort to learn the tune but sometimes I have to give up.

With regard to the Excel Keyless, this is from Gregs website: "Imagine having a 12 string tuning that gives you an extended E9th without losing the highly valued D string and a C6 tuning that includes the D string on top AND the original high G string AND an additional high F string"

That sounds pretty good - but I have almost the exact same thing with the Newman set-up, except I have to used a knee-lever to get the low D. A disadvantage perhaps, but there is other cool sounds you can make with bending up to the D, and it becomes easy to use.

Also,with the Newman setup it is one big tuning - you can weave back and forth between C6 and E9 in the same song.

Anyway, good discussion!

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 7 Apr 2017 2:50 pm

Harry Williams wrote:I have to use a knee-lever to get the low D. A disadvantage perhaps, but there is other cool sounds you can make with bending up to the D, and it becomes easy to use.

Harry, I just read Maurice Anderson's article again and when discussing whether to ditch the low D in the universal tuning he points out that bending is part of the sound of the PSG, so if you have to bend your B up or your E down (I can do either) it's perfectly fitting. I accept that if you've got used to a D string over many years it may be tough to part with it, but to a relative novice like me it's no problem!

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 7 Apr 2017 4:27 pm

Harry, I agree. I play the Newman on the U-12, and have not lost anything. The D is still there, and not that hard to get use to where it is. Myself I love it, but I still work with the 10.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 8 Apr 2017 8:32 am

D-10. Much more standardized, and where do you get a string set? Gotta customize string sets if you buy locally like I do. D-10 DOES look more impressive. And...I have never heard a universal whose tone I liked.

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 8 Apr 2017 8:44 am

Well, I'm really not sure myself, but I guess all Jeff Newman said and done over the years, he didn't know what he was doing or saying. It's to each his own, I think at the time C6th was beautiful. During that time everyone was tuning their own style. Then E9th came out, and pretty much standardized everything, then to try and lighten up things they started amps, then guitars and etc. As Jeff says, I don't think you lose anything, and do a blind trial, you won't notice a difference either. No offense.

Quentin Hickey · Post by **Quentin Hickey** » 8 Apr 2017 12:18 pm

Rich Upright wrote:D-10. Much more standardized, and where do you get a string set? Gotta customize string sets if you buy locally like I do. D-10 DOES look more impressive. And...I have never heard a universal whose tone I liked.

There are so many tunnings now that I dont know you could call the stereotypical D10 standard tunning anymore honestly Richard.

Strings?
http://www.steelguitarscanada.com/onlin ... rsal-sets/

Tone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCIMA7oa7e0

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 8 Apr 2017 7:27 pm

The twelves have true believers but you don't see them much on bandstands with hot groups. I'd look at what the great players use and go there. For me it is most definitely a D10...

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 8 Apr 2017 10:31 pm

Yes, Tom, your probably right. I can only speak in my case and in some others. Having a D-10 puts you out with the big boys, and it really looks great, but as you age and weight become an issue, then we have to lighten up. The best way to do that and still enjoy the beautiful music produced by the E9th/C6th D-10, is to change for something we can still handle. The E9th/B6th was it. I have found I have lost nothing, it sounds exactly the same, on the C6th sound, and have gained a few things on the E9th. It gives me some lower thing to play. I just wish I would have started with it. I am looking to buy a Zum U-12 now, just waiting for the sale of one of my S-10's.

Jim Reynolds · Post by **Jim Reynolds** » 9 Apr 2017 12:12 am

I just went in and read Maurice Andersons articles on these. Each one should read it. He really spells it out. I would also suggest that you purchase Jeffs E9th/B6th DVD. It is great and a wealth of information. With these two items, it should answer every question anyone would have. I play more U-12 then my others, and as I pay I continue learning so much more then I did before. It is well worth giving it a try, but as Jeff says you can't keep switching back and forth while doing it. Give it a few month of just it. I can assure you, you don't lose a thing, not even the deep bass strings, it is all there.