Temper Tuning, Is there a true "Sweet Spot"?

[Andy DePaule]

Well for guys like me who's ear is not as good as we wish, this question;
Temper Tuning, Is there a true "Sweet Spot"?
Maybe someone on the forum has an opinion? Ha ha ha ha

But really, I try to rely on my ear tuning the 2nd, 3rd, 6th & 7th tones from the root note of the chord I'm in using the harmonics often because I think my tuner is not all that good to trust.

Open E9th; I try to get the root E's and 3rds to ring together with the harmonic between the 4th and 5 frets.

AB Pedals down (The position I play from somewhat more than from open); From here I try to get the 3rd tone F# to ring harmonic between the 4th and 5 frets on strings 5&9 and 10&7 and depend on cabinet drop to let is be right with the open B when pedals are released, but that seems not quite right.

B Pedal with E's lowered: Same here, to ring harmonic between the 4th and 5 frets to get it in tune since these three positions are the ones I'm playing out of most of the time.

But they sometimes only get me in the ball park, but not quite to home plate?
Does anyone have a better answer or chart for this...
Maybe 100 different? Hope not!

But this is a serious question. Also is there any consensus on a good tuner that does not cost an arm & leg or selling the children?
Look forward to answers, specially if someone out there has perfect pitch or even perfect relative pitch, I'd put more value on answers from them.

[Glenn Demichele]

I tried everything for years, but this did it for me!!
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... one+tuning

[Charlie McDonald]

I was thinking what Glenn did.
To me, F# would be the sweet spot if we're talking about tempered tuning, like b0b's meantone from Glenn's link:

Code: Select all

G  +12.5
D  +10
A  +7.5
E  +5
B  +2.5
F#  0
C# -2.5
G# -5
D# -7.5
A# -10
E# (F) -12.5

Definitely simplifies things, to me.
Now, if you're talking about tampered tuning, the meantone is a good base to sweeten from, bearing in mind that the 'mean' tone is just that,
and so the intervals are more uniform--less extreme than ET (12 meantone), and applicable to playing in all keys than JI, even pedal steel, IMO.

For a further discussion, see http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... t=meantone about three pages in.

[Jack Stoner]

Like noses, everyone has an opinion.

My opinion, I've tried many different approaches to tuning and have finally settled on the Jeff Newman Sweetened tunings in the Peterson.

I've used everything from an E tuning fork. I tried "straight up" (tuning everything to "o") and everybody told me I was out of tune. I then went to the original Jeff Newman chart (at 440 or 0) and then to a slightly modified Newman for my D-10 Franklin. I had tried the Newman at -2.5Hz (+10 cents) on an older Peterson and it just didn't work or sound right. However when I got the new Peterson I tried it again and everything seemed to fall in place. I now have the Peterson E9th Sweetened Newman settings for both Opens and the Pedal/Knee Levers in one program to keep from switching when tuning (including a couple of common changes that weren't around when Newman made his chart). I have the same thing for C6th too. Another + for the Newman tuning on the C6th, I tuned the high E and C strings with the tuner then I tuned all the other string with harmonics and then checked the strings with the tuner and they were all right on.

[Andy DePaule]

Thanks Guys for all that information.
Will follow it all up in detail as soon as I get some errands done.
Best wishes,
Andy

[Erv Niehaus]

I agree with Jack, it works for me.

[Marco Schouten]

I use the values from here: http://www.lozach.com/tuning.php?

type in the measured cabinet drop of your guitar and the values are calculated.
I programmed these in my Peterson tuner.

[b0b]

Tuning by harmonics is the pedal guitarists' attempt to achieve "just intonation" or JI for short. (It's not "tempered tuning", Andy. Anything that isn't tuned true to harmonics is tempered.)

The problem with JI this: as tension on the body changes with pedals and levers pulling strings, the tuning of everything changes. I think it's accurate to say that a pedal steel can never be tuned perfectly to any tuning scheme. It's up to the player to take an imperfect tuning and play it in tune.

That said, we can improve the probability of playing in tune by understanding certain fundamental truths about pitch and harmony.

1. The just major 3rd (386.3 cents) and the just minor 3rd (315.6 cents) sound in tune because the waves of the harmonics are perfectly aligned when they hit our ears.
2. The equally-tempered (ET) major third (400 cents) and minor third (300 cents) don't sound bad because of cultural conditioning. Most non-musicians can't hear the difference.
3. The area between those extremes (386.3 to 400 cents) is acceptable as harmony, but when you get outside of those limits, it definitely sounds out of tune. For example, 380 cents is too flat for a major 3rd, and 405 cents is too sharp.
4. The difference between JI and ET on 4ths and 5ths is only 2 cents. 3rds are where the action is.

When you tune to pure harmonics and start pressing various pedals and levers, you're going to run into combinations that aren't in tune - that is, the 3rds fall outside of the acceptable range. The way to fix this is to systematically temper the tuning so that all of your 3rds are in the "safe" area between JI and ET.

This isn't hard to do with an electronic tuner. If we think of JI as being A at 0 and C# at -14 (pedals down), we have 14 cents to play with. I've found that I can play in tune by cutting that gap in half, more or less. Major 3rds in the range of -5 to -10 cents from ET all sound like good harmony. Cabinet drop of 5 cents or so is no longer an issue because the 3rds are still "in the ball park" - they're still with that 14 cent safe zone.

It's not a "sweet spot", Andy. It's a big, wide, "sweet zone".

You can drive yourself crazy trying to get a pedal steel perfectly in tune, or you can deliberately tune your 3rds a little bit off and play in tune. Using this method, I rarely have to retune in the middle of a set. If the temperature is constant, I can sometimes play 2 or 3 sets without retuning.

[b0b]

Here's what I came up with for E9th, using the method described above. There is no doubt that this is technically out of tune according to any conventional system, but it works. It's easy to remember because all of the open strings are 0, +5 or -5.

• tune E, B, and D to +5
• tune F# to 0
• tune G# and D# to -5
• tune A to 0
• tune C#, A# and the C pedal F# to -10
• tune F lever to -15
• tune G and C (splits) to +10

On some guitars I tweak the pedaled C# note a bit to match the amount of drop on the G# string.

[Andy DePaule]

Thanks Bob,
That is certainly worth a try.
I knew there is no real perfect solution, but just want to find a place as close as possible to right.
In the end we have to adjust the bar very slightly for every chord at every fret to get as close as possible. Becomes not a conscience deal but sliding to that point that sounds best, if that makes sense.
I just know that other steelers out there have a much better ear than I have.
Andy

[David Peirce]

+1 for the Peterson Newman tunings - never a problem for me unless I've left a set of strings on too long. Before the Peterson, I'd get an E (or C) from the lead guitar player, check it with the bass player, and then (quietly) tune the rest of the strings with a fuzz tone switched on, tuning out the beats that would show up when playing two or three notes together, then repeating for the pedals and KL's. Arguably the only reason (these days, anyway) for having a fuzz tone box in the kit.

[Steve Sycamore]

To my ears there is absolutely no question that a properly JI tuned guitar sounds very, very much better than any other option. But to do that you need to work out the right sequence of pedals down/pedals up and levers in/levers out tuning that works for any particular guitar. It also requires frequent checking and adjustment so that you probably need a good quality pre-programmed strobe tuner.

That is a lot of attention to give for casual playing. But if you're recording something that might be heard by a million people or playing live for a large audience those measures are worth it. I use a pricy Peterson 490-ST which has a stretch program mode that can map each note in each octave to the desired pitch automatically.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 91c80bee29

[Charlie McDonald]

If you can picture the width of the 'sweet zone' you can see that b0s's note values are about the middle of the range, thus the meantone.
This makes the tuning more durable for psg for the reasons b0b mentioned, particularly on the job where nothing's perfect.

This meantone tuning, one/sixth comma (meaning gap), is less critical than what is termed ET (one/twelfth comma), having fewer divisions
of the octave. The sweet zone is wider, so cabinet drop is mitigated, making it a reduced fault tuning for pedal steel. And it's easy.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Well for guys like me who's ear is not as good as we wish, this question;
Temper Tuning, Is there a true "Sweet Spot"?....

I used to think there was but as my ear improves I certainly can't find one anymore. At this point I spend my time trying to find the least horrible option. When I'm playing normal country music or pop type music I need to force myself to go with the crowd and play sharp and live with the irritating sounds. When playing with classical guys I need to find the beatless perfect spot that fits with the section I'm in.
For playing more adventurous music all bets are off ! It can be way more difficult or not matter at all depending on the music.

I tune pretty standard JI with harmonics and pull up my 3rds a little style. Close to Newman I guess.

[Lane Gray]

The modern vocabulary uses more pulls into and out of unison, so the idea of multiple F#s is becoming difficult.
I wearied of the tail-chasing of pursuing JI, and, like Bob H., I went for "least bad."
Feel free to give this a try: Every note at 0,except for the following: A#, C#, D#, E#/F and G#. These all go about 6 cents flat

[b0b]

I went for "least bad."
Feel free to give this a try: Every note at 0,except for the following: A#, C#, D#, E#/F and G#. These all go about 6 cents flat

I like that except for the E#/F which has to be flatter than the rest if you actually use it.

[Greg Lambert]

There are so many technical ways to tune your guitar. I have found if you use the Newman chart to tune in open and then rely on your ear for the best sound works really good.

Another thing I found that most overlook. When the bass player plays , sometimes they will push the strings way to hard and his strings will go sharp. This will never be noticed with a regular guitar but It will tear up a steel if your not listening. I found this on a couple of recordings that I did. Its very noticeable to me although some may never hear it.

[Lane Gray]

I went for "least bad."
Feel free to give this a try: Every note at 0,except for the following: A#, C#, D#, E#/F and G#. These all go about 6 cents flat

I like that except for the E#/F which has to be flatter than the rest if you actually use it.

Indeed. If I used it more often, I'd probably flat it 15, given that it's a M3 to two notes already flatted.

[Ian Rae]

JI sounds beautiful if you can achieve it. You can ask too much of it (the tail-chasing that Lane refers to), and mechanical reality plays a part also.

A major third which is slightly sharper than the theoretical 5:4 ratio is quite acceptable to the ear - it's still way sweeter than the equal-tempered one. But if it's only a tiny amount flat for some mechanical reason then it's deadly. So I do like Bob and leave a little leeway.

I am aware of the limitations of natural intervals. On my uni I have two F#s and two C#s - oh, and two E#s - but I never ask them to do anything they're not qualified for.

[Jim Reynolds]

As a player with a severe hearing loss, I have not been able to tune by ear for years. I tuned to the Newman tuning when he first had it out, then I think in about 89, it was determined that it was still wrong by 2.5 hrtz flat. So they change it and made the tuning they have now, after over two years trial. Peterson used his tuning for their Sweetened Tuning. It works great, and never have an issue with it. I still use my Boss TU-12 mostly, but the Peterson, has it all. Talking tuning here will really get a good one going. Like religion and politics. hahahahaha

[Charlie McDonald]

I tuned to the Newman tuning when he first had it out, then I think in about 89, it was determined that it was still wrong by 2.5 hrtz flat.

I'm not clear what this means and where the pitch difference would apply. Can you elaborate?

[Lane Gray]

He's saying that if you use the basic Newman numbers, with your tuner calibrated to A=440 (with the Es at 0), the whole guitar sounds a tad flat,and it sounds more consonant with the band if you either:
1) recalibrate your tuner to A=442.5,or;
2) add plus ten cents to every value on the chart

[Charlie McDonald]

I see, thanks.

[Jim Reynolds]

Thanks Lane.