PSGs and their guitar equivalents

Scott Nipper · Post by **Scott Nipper** » 7 Mar 2017 11:13 am

I read the specs and reviews of PSGs but what I would really like is the equivalent PSG in guitar-speak. For example, what's the PSG equivalent of a Fender American Standard or Les Paul Standard. I am above the level of an Epiphone Les Paul or Mexican Strat and can't afford Custom Shop guitars. (Note: I'm not dissing any guitars, just trying to get some kind of reference comparison that I can relate to and to help me narrow my search as I move from a Carter Starter to a "pro" model)

Greg Lambert · Post by **Greg Lambert** » 7 Mar 2017 12:10 pm

Thats kind of a hard question to answer. I play a D10 Derby thats around 20 years old. Had to change a few of the tuners that were wore out and thats it. Beautiful sound still today.

I could have bought a GFI which was cheaper than mine around that time. They also played great and sounded great.

Considering todays engineering and the professionals that build them today , your almost guaranteed a high quality guitar from any of them.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 7 Mar 2017 12:19 pm

Think it more like cars.
You've got a 73 Chevy Vega.
Even a late model Kia Soul will be a marked improvement.
And there's not a guitar on the market that I know of that I'd say "don't get that."

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Mar 2017 1:09 pm

Price range is a better indicator.

Scott Nipper · Post by **Scott Nipper** » 7 Mar 2017 2:55 pm

Thanks for the replies. I'm looking to spend <$2K. One thing I'm getting from the replies is don't buy something old. And yet, I see so many people that ooh and ahh over an old Sho-Bud or Emmons.

I've had a Dekley student model and the Carter Starter. I didn't know shit when I had the Dekley and I sold it after a year because I'd go a week or two without practicing and forget everything I'd learned. Then the leader of this band I started playing with a few months ago found out I had a steel and said "I have one collecting dust. Wanna play it?" So I cleaned it up, put on new strings and suddenly it's so much easier now and I'm hooked.

But the Carter's LK levers are "funky." By that I mean they bend easily and then start "traveling", for lack of a better word, to the point where my knee is either on it's way to Tahoe, to the left, or kissing my other knee, to the right. I basically have to place it in tune by feel cuz it doesn't have a consistent stopping point. Plus it doesn't stay in tune very well and sounds thin with little sustain (compared to what I hear on YouTube videos - like Mickey Adam's Mullen) (Note that I've let out the screw underneath that provides some adjustment for lever "play" but it ends up just wiggling it's way around that so I have to bend the lever back. I've already replaced the lever with one of the other ones cuz it was so bent!)

I need a better guitar!

I'd like to think I can find something that will let me gig and sound good and not have me fighting for the sound for around $1500. (I don't want to go over $2K). Is that a reasonable expectation?

Charlie Hansen · Post by **Charlie Hansen** » 7 Mar 2017 3:14 pm

Zum Encore. $1499.00.

Greg Lambert · Post by **Greg Lambert** » 7 Mar 2017 7:42 pm

Charlie Hansen wrote:Zum Encore. $1499.00.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 7 Mar 2017 8:09 pm

Hi, Scott, Your knee lever issue is one of the "faults" with the C. Starter build. If you look under that knee, as you've mentioned, you'll see a roundhead screw that is the final stop against the body for the knee, which slips off to one side or the other because the knee itself is a little loose and because it's a roundheaded screw. Just find a small piece of aluminum stock the approximate thickness of the screw head, drill two small holes in it and replace the round head screw with the flat piece. You will then have a solid stop for the lever which won't be able to further slip off to Tahoe.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Mar 2017 8:23 pm

For around $2000 you can get something pretty great. A student just picked up an old ZB that is a killer steel for under 2K. Some of those old Sho Buds are sweet guitars too. An Emmons S10 will run you a bit more. With those old instruments condition mean allot. It helps if you have somebody around who can help with maintenance.

Then you get into used Carters, MSA and a bunch of others. You should be able to find a used pro level S10 for around 2K.

Do you have a pro level player near you to help out ?

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 7 Mar 2017 9:15 pm

Hi Scott, and welcome to the forum. $US2000 and a bit of patience, coupled with careful research, will get you a great professional S10 with as much music and tone as you can get out of it and then some.

I can't compare them to, or draw analogies between steels and Teles or Strats precisely because a steel ain't a Strat or a Tele...it's a steel, and it has a sound unique to it which is all its own. That's why we play 'em!

Any modern all-pull S10 with 3X4 (or 4X5 if possible), be it an MSA, Carter, Rittenberry, Derby, Emmons LeGrande, EMCI, Dekley, Desert Rose, Excel, Fessenden, Infinity, Jackson, Justice, Lone Star, Magnum, Marlen, MCI, Pedalmaster, Performance, Rains, Sho-Bud, Sierra, Stage One, Williams, Wilcox or ZB is within striking-distance with your budget. I've left Mullen, Show-Pro and Zum out because they (and a few others) are likely to exceed your budget, even for an S10.

If used, they may not be cosmetically pristine, but at a gig or in the studio it's the sound that matters, not the looks. Looks are only skin-deep whereas tone goes all the way to the bone!

The "For Sale" section is a good place to start, and there are several very reputable and highly-valued sellers who regularly post on the forum from whom you will get good advice and ultimately a great steel-guitar.

I know you're working to a budget (who isn't these days?) but it may help to keep in mind something which has a lot of truth in it:- "If you want decent quality oats, then you have to pay what the market asks...if you'll settle for the oats after they've passed through the horse, well, that's cheaper!"

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 8 Mar 2017 12:46 pm

Charlie Hansen wrote:Zum Encore. $1499.00.

That was my solution for getting a good instrument right off the bat and I'm very happy. It would be a huge step up from your Carter Starter.

One thing to consider is how much work you're wililng to do on your own steel and/or what kind of PSG-competent luthiers are in your area. When I got my new Encore (ended up only $1670 shipped with a 4th pedal and pad ) there were other affordable high-quality PSG"s to be had. Even some nice D10's around the 2k mark.

However, there isn't a PSG repairman nearby and I'd rather not worry about such so going with a very reliable, modern mechanism that would likely require less (and less complicated) adjustments was a high priority. Though it lacks the chrome (literally) of more expensive models, I don't feel that I settled at all in terms of tone or playability.

On the other hand if there's a good tech in the area that you're willing to use, there may be some used deals in the $2k realm that could get you an impressively featured instrument.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 Mar 2017 1:01 pm

Don't buy something old is very interesting. Old as in when ? What is defined as old ? What determines if old is bad ?

Your inquiry should be based on the pulling system, not the age. The old MSA's are about as rugged and easy to work on as any modern era Steel. Heavier ? yes. The Sho Buds from the same era, two hole pullers up to the 5 hole pullers going into the 80's , easy as pie to set up and work on.

The Carter Starter you have is NOT to be compared to other all pull Steels , and it's not supposed to be.

Set your budget, ask questions , age is important but should not be a deal killer , the pull system is what makes the guitar good, not the age.

john widgren · Post by **john widgren** » 8 Mar 2017 1:48 pm

67 Emmons = 53 Tele = 57 Chevy = P51 Mustang
or something like that..
All iconic, all great in thier way, all rare, and all not cheap.

Ahahahaha
Best JW

Scott Nipper · Post by **Scott Nipper** » 8 Mar 2017 4:35 pm

Mark: I will definitely try that solution!

Bob: My instructor is Peter Grant. I think he'd be considered a pro level player. I'm not sure about maintenance, though. I'll have to ask at my next lesson.

Ned: that list is pretty exhaustive! I don't really care about looks, I care about tone and playability. And it really isn't about price. My 30-year old strat that I got for $500 is my #1 over my ES-335 and my Les Paul Standard costing 4x's as much. I'm liking what I see at Steel Guitars of North County. Jim seems to have a good selection and certainly seems to know his stuff!

Tony: It's not so much "old" as "condition". Pictures of the underside of some of these guitars that show rust and such...I don't want a restoration project!

I understand the appeal of old. Would I like a '57 Les Paul Goldtop. Ummm...yeah. Is my 15-year-old Goldtop good....sure is.

Karl: reliable, modern mechanism - that's what I want.

Thanks so much for everyone's input. Truly appreciated!

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 8 Mar 2017 10:20 pm

Like Lane says Newer is Better. It's a machine, not a Stradivarius. You can get a LOT for under 2K, for example the Discoveries, Encores, and GFIs. By the way, you said you didn't know Sh** about pedal steels. However when you got the Carter starter, I think you just might have met Sh**. Friends don't let Friends buy Carter Starters.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Mar 2017 5:41 am

Tony's right, type and condition is more important than just age. But this makes it hard for newbies to make a good selection, since they know very little to start with. How many times a guitar has changed hands is another problem, as steelers are wont to make modifications and "improvements", and many have no idea what they're doing. Buying a guitar without having some playing knowledge is just like buying a car if you've never driven one. Always get a 2nd or 3rd opinion from a seasoned player!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Mar 2017 6:18 am

Scott Nipper wrote: Tony: It's not so much "old" as "condition". Pictures of the underside of some of these guitars that show rust and such...I don't want a restoration project!

Agreed . This is exactly why you deal with a reputable person, ask the right questions, get the right answers.

There are many new era guitars that lack in condition as well. Just like there are many older guitars that are in primo condition !

Keep your eyes open, you'll do well.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 9 Mar 2017 6:50 am

Scott Nipper wrote:Mark: I will definitely try that solution!

Bob: My instructor is Peter Grant. I think he'd be considered a pro level player. I'm not sure about maintenance, though. I'll have to ask at my next lesson.

Ned: that list is pretty exhaustive! I don't really care about looks, I care about tone and playability. And it really isn't about price. My 30-year old strat that I got for $500 is my #1 over my ES-335 and my Les Paul Standard costing 4x's as much. I'm liking what I see at Steel Guitars of North County. Jim seems to have a good selection and certainly seems to know his stuff!

Tony: It's not so much "old" as "condition". Pictures of the underside of some of these guitars that show rust and such...I don't want a restoration project!

I understand the appeal of old. Would I like a '57 Les Paul Goldtop. Ummm...yeah. Is my 15-year-old Goldtop good....sure is.

Karl: reliable, modern mechanism - that's what I want.

Thanks so much for everyone's input. Truly appreciated!

Pete is about as knowledgeable as anyone here. Ask him for help in finding the perfect guitar for you. Have fun, and good luck in your search.

Scott Nipper · Post by **Scott Nipper** » 9 Mar 2017 4:17 pm

@ Richard - LOL. I didn't buy it. The leader of the band I was playing dobro in asked if I played steel cuz he had one lying around. I said I did and gave it up but would try again if they wanted steel. It's the Carter Starter. Now, dadgumit, I'm hooked and I'm looking for a real steel!

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 13 Mar 2017 6:29 am

I just picked up
Something that might fit your bill
214-612-9993.. please call after the 17th I'll be in my shop..

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