7th chords in 6th tuning?

[Adam Tracksler]

Adam, your G6th has the same intervals as the C6th I tabbed above. Instead of F7, C7 and G7, you would get C7, G7 and D7.
[tab]chord C7 G7 D7 C7 G7 D7 C7 G7 D7 C7 G7 D7
B _________________________________________________________________
G _____3____4____5_____________________9____10___11________________
E _____/____/____/_____6____7____8_____/____/____/_____12___13___14
D _____2____3____4_____/____/____/_____8____9____10____/____/____/_
B _____________________5____6____7_____________________11___12___13
G _________________________________________________________________
notes Bb B C Bb B C E F F# E F F#
E F F# E F F# Bb B C Bb B C [/tab]

Thanks Bob, looking at this, would the double stop for D7 also be an A7? (Since its a whole stop above the G7?)

[John Goux]

Using Bob's and Mike's method and tab,

"There are no tritones in the open C6th tuning, so you have to slant the bar. The easiest tritone bar slants are forward slants that skip a string, on two strings that are a 4th apart. The E(5) and A(3) strings are the most obvious. The other pair is G(4) and C(2). Here I have tabbed the easiest tritones, key of C, for C6th tuning: "

Same idea and almost as easy, are to take the strings pairs that are 5ths, and do a reverse slant to achieve a tritone. In 8 string C6:
Low to high. F A C E G A C E
There are 4 sets that are a 5th away. 8-6, 7-5, 6-4 and 3-1.

These forward slants and backward slants all work for dominant 7th chords.
John

[b0b]

Thanks Bob, looking at this, would the double stop for D7 also be an A7? (Since its a whole stop above the G7?)

No, the D7 notes (F# and C) are also the notes for Ab7 (C and Gb). They are a tritone apart. That's the substitution that Mike Neer was talking about.

[Michael James]

and I am alone playing these, if I were in a band, I probably would just play the major...)

Playing only 3 and b7 may not be a big enough sound. I think you need to use a 7th based tuning or a modified C6 tuning.
Here's a tuning that is fun. Raise the 2nd string of a C6 tuning to C#.

(L to H) C E G A C# E - Top 5 string E-5 G-b7 A-1 C#-3 E-5 of an A7 chord. If you don't need the low C triad you can also tune the 6th string to C#. Then you'll have a monster huge 7th chord.

The tuning I use has a 7th built in.
Cma11 (L to H) C-E-G-B-D-F The top four string make a nice G7 chord.

If you're using a single neck lap steel and you play C6 most of the time, and once in while you just need a strong 7th chord the 2nd string C# trick might be the answer.

You gotta love the steel guitar. It has so many options. You just have to find what work for you.

[Stefan Robertson]

Use Jerry Byrd's C6/A7

Lo - Hi

C#, E, G, a, c, e

[David M Brown]

Use Jerry Byrd's C6/A7

Lo - Hi

C#, E, G, a, c, e

And retune 2 strings and you are in A6!

G to F#, C to C#

[b0b]

Use Jerry Byrd's C6/A7

Lo - Hi

C#, E, G, a, c, e

To translate that to your G6th, raise the low G to G#. That creates a full E7th chord (1st inversion) on the low 4 strings.

G# B D E G B

You would still have the G6th/Em7th chords on the top 5 strings.

There's a nice rootless 7th chord position using the nose of the bar on strings 2 & 3, and slanting to get the 7th tone on string 5:
[tab] G7 (note)
B _______
G ___7___ (D, the 5th)
E ___7___ (B, the 3rd)
D ___/___
B ___6___ (F, the b7th)
G _______
[/tab]

[Brian McGaughey]

I'm a little late here but my "dobro" partials mind thinks these intervals (although not chords):

The 5th and 6th of a 6th tuning becomes the b7th and the root octave. Those are adjacent to each other as strings. Major 2nd interval. Think of the 6th tone in the tuning as the root in this circumstance and the 5th as the b7 below.

Also the major 3rd and the 5th of the tuning up 3 frets becomes the 5th and the b7.

These are simple non slant partials.

These ideas do not incorporate the importance of the tri-tone idea of sound of the dom. 7th though.

[b0b]

Here's a wide 3 note chord 7th chord, high root, no 5th.
[tab] G7 (note)
B ___8___ (G, the root)
G ___/___
E ___7___ (B, the 3rd)
D ___/___
B ___6___ (F, the b7th)
G _______
[/tab]
This is exactly what P6 does on a C6th pedal steel, by the way.

[Michael James]

This is a little off topic.
I have the opposite problem. Sometimes I want the 6th sound and with the Cma11 tuning I can only get it with risky slants. So what I do is I lower the first string to E then I get a G6 chord on string 1 through 5.

C-(E-G-B-D-E)

[Jack Hanson]

There's a nice rootless 7th chord position using the nose of the bar on strings 2 & 3, and slanting to get the 7th tone on string 5:
[tab] G7 (note)
B _______
G ___7___ (D, the 5th)
E ___7___ (B, the 3rd)
D ___/___
B ___6___ (F, the b7th)
G _______[/tab]

Here's a wide 3 note chord 7th chord, high root, no 5th.
[tab] G7 (note)
B ___8___ (G, the root)
G ___/___
E ___7___ (B, the 3rd)
D ___/___
B ___6___ (F, the b7th)
G _______
[/tab]

Those two positions are my favorites for "a seventh chord in a sixth tuning" when playing a six-string instrument. Combined with the straight bar 6th chord in the root position, it's Western Swing steel guitar in a nutshell.

[Mike Neer]

Here's a wide 3 note chord 7th chord, high root, no 5th.
[tab] G7 (note)
B ___8___ (G, the root)
G ___/___
E ___7___ (B, the 3rd)
D ___/___
B ___6___ (F, the b7th)
G _______
[/tab]
This is exactly what P6 does on a C6th pedal steel, by the way.

If you do a reverse slant in the exact position, you will also get a G7 chord

6.......f
x
7......b
x
8......g
x

The thing about using two notes as chords is that you want to pick them and not sustain them. If you can get a Red Garland feel, where you pick on the upbeat of 2 and 4 only, it is very swinging and along with the bassist, sufficient enough in some cases to outline the chords. Do the same for minor chords, too, playing the b3 and the b7. For major chords, you need to determine the chord quality. For a major 7 chord, play the 3rd and 7th.

It's so much fun figuring this stuff out. Enjoy the process.

[Andy Henriksen]

Those two positions are my favorites for "a seventh chord in a sixth tuning" when playing a six-string instrument.

Whereas I use the first one CONSTANTLY and never the 2nd, wider one. I know what I'll be working on this weekend.

[Adam Tracksler]

Amazing wealth of knowledge here!

Looks like I need to take the train back to theory-ville!

I like the idea of the raised 6th string. I may try that out, as well as working in a vacation to slant-y town!

//ad

[Jim Smerk]

Great info folks....even tho me lil' brain just exploded....but great info!

[Steffen Gunter]

Great info folks

+1, thanks, great thread!

[Suzanne Shafer]

I just found this thread and I want to thank you all for contributing to it. I began playing the lap steel this past March and joined the Forum today. I haven't found anyone else in my area who plays lap steel, and while I appreciate several teachers available online, it seems I'm always coming up with questions for which I can't find answers in their lessons. My years as a classical pianist have helped me work out many things, but not a satisfactory approach to Dominant 7th chords. This thread gave me what I needed and from now on the Forum will be my first Go-To.

[Mike Auman]

I just found this thread and I want to thank you all for contributing to it. I began playing the lap steel this past March and joined the Forum today. I haven't found anyone else in my area who plays lap steel, and while I appreciate several teachers available online, it seems I'm always coming up with questions for which I can't find answers in their lessons. My years as a classical pianist have helped me work out many things, but not a satisfactory approach to Dominant 7th chords. This thread gave me what I needed and from now on the Forum will be my first Go-To.

Welcome to the Forum!

[Allan Revich]

Hi Suzanne,
I play a lot of blues and always want quick access to the dominant 7 chords. My solution is to use a “9th” tuning. 9th chords will always have a major chord, a 7 chord, a 9 chord, and a minor chord on every fret (straight bar).

My tuning is a very uncommon G9 (GBDFAD) but there are some more common 9th tunings too.

These are from John Ely https://www.hawaiiansteel.com/tunings/master.php

[Suzanne Shafer]

Wow! Thanks, Allan. This is great. I already know I want 8 strings, and I've been thinking that when I get them, I might use the Don Helms E6th tuning that CE Jackson posted on the Forum back in May of '17. You have given me something new to think about. Since I still see everything in terms of black and white keys, I'm at my keyboard working out what these tunings would deliver.

Also, since I really like 6th tunings, I have been wondering about a tuning I've never seen referenced: C-E-G-A-Bb-C-E-G, which gives me two major triads, a minor triad, and multiple dominant 7th options on every fret. Since I haven't found a similar tuning mentioned anywhere, I'm wondering whether there is something intrinsically problematic with it.

[Joel Bloom]

You can use this to customise your tunimg and then plug in any chord or scale. Easy

http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/g ... ex_rb.html

[Suzanne Shafer]

Cool. Thanks, Joel.

[Allan Revich]

When it comes to tunings, part of it comes down to learning preferences. If you are happy being self-directed then the options are virtually unlimited. You can keep experimenting until you discover what works for you. N the other hand if you prefer to learn by using prepared learning materials, like books and videos, then you’ll want to concentrate on the tunings with the most resources. Open D, E, G, and C6.

On 8 strings (which I don’t play) it seems that E13 and C13 are popular tunings. If you like tunings that include a 6th and you’re also looking for the dominant 7 chordS, those 13th tunings are probably your ticket!


[/img]

[Nic Neufeld]

I saw the thread title, and thought, hey, even I, with my limited years of experience, can help out with that!

[opens thread]

[backs away, impressed]

Good stuff in here!

[Suzanne Shafer]

Allan, I appreciate your comment about learning style. In the beginning I spent many hours on John Ely's and Troy Brenningmeyer's websites, and with YouTube videos by players whose names I'm now seeing in the Forum. They were all extraordinarily helpful. (I had forgotten all about John's Tuning Master List, so thanks for the reminder.) But now I find myself mostly learning by noodling. I know what my ear likes and I've always had an adventurer's heart, so experimenting with a tuning I haven't seen written down is totally in character. My main concern is that I don't do something that might damage my guitar structurally. But given the abundance of tunings in John's list, perhaps that's not something I need to worry about.