Let's talk about SUSTAIN

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

I would like input from experienced people particularly builders on this topic.
My question is what do you think is the biggest contributor to the sustain of a steel guitar. I've seen a high end guitar ring marginally and then a cheap guitar ring like a bell and feel the vibration all the way down to the legs of the guitar.

Would you say it's the neck? The cabinet? Construction? I know these are all big contributors but I feel like one is more dominant.

This could turn into an interesting thread

richard burton · From: Britain

I find that the less complicated the changer mechanism, the better the sustain.

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

This doesn't explain and maybe only complicates the question even more but here's something I noticed once at Carter Guitar.

There was probably 8 guitars in his shop one day. I ran my finger across the top of each guitar as I walked by them. You could absolutely hear the ones that had a livelier brighter sustain and ones that had a darker more muted sustain.

All of the wear the same models with the exception of some were mica and the others wood. I noticed the mica had the brighter longer sustain.

My conclusion is it's mostly wood related but it seems that mica has much to do with what we hear. Could it be that mica doesn't absorb sound waves like bare wood?
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Glenn Demichele · From: (20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA

I've heard it mentioned before here on the forum that if "you feel it in the legs", the guitar has good sustain. That makes no sense to me at all. Yeah, maybe that guitar might sound better, but sustain is all about keeping the vibrational energy in the strings. If the legs are moving, that energy is getting out. Actually if you built a guitar that had infinite sustain, you wouldn't be able to hear it because no energy could leave the strings to reach your ear (or the amp through the pickup). Of course you could make such a guitar by building in permanant eBows, which replenish the lost energy...
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Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc...

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I will have to agree with Richard. that's one reason why Emmons push pull, old Show Buds and guitars like Marlen with the pull release system all for the most parts have good sustain. Makes sense, the less stuff to vibrate, the longer it will sustain. I also think the pickup has a lot to do with sustain. In all my playing years and out of the guitars I've owned, I've only had three that were just dead with no sustain and they were all modern all pull guitars. However, good volume pedal technique come over come a lot of bad sustain.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Everything counts! Pieces of wood are all different, so one piece of maple won't necessarily have the same tonal qualities as another. Both mica and wood guitars can sound good, but anytime wood is involved, it's a crapshoot, since no two pieces are alike. The changer and the nut are very significant, too. Not only will the materials used, and their size and mass affect the sound, but how everything is put together will affect the tone and "sustain". Too many screws, or screws that are too tight or too loose can kill the sound and sustain.

Want to do a neat experiment on how much the changer affects the sound? Sit behind your (unamplified) guitar and strum the strings while barring at the 12th fret. (Palm block all the strings behind the bar.) Now, walk around to the front of the guitar and do the same thing (only this time you'll be strumming the strings between the bar and the keyhead).

Hear the difference? Whoa!

Now, with all that said, I've never really played a guitar that didn't have sufficient sustain or good enough tone to get a good sound. Music would be very boring if all guitars sounded the same.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I agree about the physics of the leg vibration... has never made sense to me either...

The mica vs lacquer thing may be explained through understanding that vibration is reflected at interface points between different materials. And a glue layer between mica or wood makes for quite an interesting interface. As does air to mica vs wood.

I once disassembled a guitar for a deep cleaning. It had reasonable sustain before, and poor sustain after. I found the snugness of the fit of components along the counter tension path played THE major role in sustain and this solved the issue. Had to also tune the dead sits out using neck screw tension as Donny says above.

Thus I would rate manufacturing precision along these interfaces and assembly nuances as the number 1 issues. Followed by design. Then materials.

When it is all done right... LOTS of sustain.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

James Morehead and I used to try to figure out why Shobud Perms and Fingertips had such good tone and sustain. The Perms have a pretty simple changer, but the changer on an F-tip is pretty complicated. But they both sound great. One thing I had noticed was that they both have larger diameter changer axles. 9/16ths? Aren't most axles today 1/2 inch in diameter? They were on the Performance guitars I assembled for Jerry Brightman. I don't see why the nut, roller or not, would have much effect except when playing open, as we mute the strings behind the tone bar. Couldn't a roller nut actually be detrimental, as the rollers require some play in order to roll, and that play could result in diminishing vibrations? But it's certainly a question of the sum of all the parts I guess.
RIP James!
RIP Jerry!
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"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

The "simpler changers that sustain better", all have one thing in common: larger and heavier fingers for the strings to vibrate against. Difficult to make "larger mass" fingers fit the average all-pull mechanism, and the scissors will never become parts of that mass because of how they are made and coupled in. Thus, all else equal, push-pull and pull-release changers are at an advantage when it comes to sustain.

There are of course ways to increase the "mass couplings" for better sustaining all-pull changers, but mechanical compromises will always be the all-pull changer's worst enemy when it comes to sustain.

As for the "leg vibration" factor ... for those who care to check, all PSGs that show strong leg vibrations don't necessarily sustain well - some just lose energy that way because they vibrate at or close to frequencies of the picked notes.
Those that do "vibrate through to the floor" and also sustain well, will all show the strongest leg vibrations at sub-harmonics of the picked strings as the body gets charged by the sustained notes. When the "mass couplings" are more or less optimized throughout the structure, some of that sub-harmonic charge will return to excite the strings, and make these steels sustain longer and more even.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Rich Upright · From: Florida, USA

In my experience, here are the most important things that contribute to tone & sustain:

1. Neck...Aluminum necks seem to have more sustain than wood, and their tone is also "throatier". I have heard very few wooden neck guitars that I like; the 2 being MSA Classic & LDG Buds.

2. Condition of your bar. I like to polish my bar regularly; seems to sustain better when it's polished to the max

3. Strings. The newer the string, the more the sustain. Just common sense.

4. Amp settings. For bothe steel AND guitar, how you EQ your amp makes a big difference in sustain. Seems like bottom end are sustain killers; as my strings get older, I crank the highs up a little.

5. Band volume & "busy-ness" If the band has a clean rhythym section, you are gonna "appear" to sustain more; bands with loud or busy rhythm sections (epidemic here in Florida) are gonna "appear" to kill your sustain.

6. Volume pedal technique. 'Nuff said.

7. Number of changes...if you got a lotta knees, all that hardware is gonna have an effect on sustain.

8. The room you are playing. I like a fairly live room; dead rooms kill the sustain.

9. Amount of reverb & delay you use.
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Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I tend to agree with Seymour and Emmons on there opinions about sustain.

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

I agree with Donny. On my 1st trip to the States...I went with a pal to Clem Smidth's (spelling ? ) shop ..in Minneapolis. There were wall to wall steels of all various brands. I "acoustically" strummed all models of similar configurations...they all sounded different to a certain extent. Confused

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Ed Boyd · From: Illinois, USA

Something that is an interesting discussion is how the way an unplugged (six string fretted) guitar resonates and rings translate to sustain through an amp. Iâ€™ve heard guitar players argue over this. Some say the louder and brighter a guitar sustains less because energy is lost through outgoing sound waves. Some think that is crazy. The quiet guitar camp are often Les Paul guys. Where heavy dark guitars do not ring and the energy is not transferred out of the string. It stays in the strings and is transferred out the pickup.

Which is right? I have no idea. I have both kinds of guitar and like them both. I assume the same physics arguments translate to steel.

Bill C. Buntin · From: Cleburne TX

Bud carter physically proved to me what makes sustain and what is the holy grail of sustain and tone.

He pointed out, #1-if the guitar is decently built and well maintained, tone and sustain are maximized by the players skill.

We physically side by side compared pp Emmons and my mci d10.

When I left that day I realized a bunch. And realized the genius of the push pull changer and the genius of the carter all pull changer

It was no secret. Bud proved to me that day why buddy was so particularly fond of the mci.

Bottom line, Bud carter was a mechanical genius. After he coached me on keeping the mci changer set up and working properly, I never once had a question in my mind about sustain and tone.

The key to sustain and tone is having the changer setup and functioning proper.

Then, the artist can allow his or her hands to create the magic.

Rich Upright · From: Florida, USA

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

With the benefit of only a single data point....a 1974 Shobud...with 8x7.. there seems to be a Tipping Point where hardware load suddenly has a detrimental affect on tone.... the seventh lever ... a vertical on the C6th neck with 5 pulls...notably changed the tone and sustain compared to not having it installed. As other levers were previously added to that point... there was no discernable difference in tone.

The guitar is still acceptable but my goal is to change the vertical lever design to make it simpler and also reduce it to one or two pulls.

Note that Shobud attaches their hardware to the underside plank rather than via apron attached siderails of more modern guitars which would likely make Shobud more sensitive to this kind of loading.

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

Dan Behringer · From: Jerseyville, Illinois

Trying to approach this topic from a logical angle, sustain means how long the strings vibrate after they’re picked. Since they vibrate between the changer and the bar, it seems those parts would have the most influence on sustain.

I’m no expert, I’ve owned a Sho Bud, MSA, and a GFI. My GFI has 4 times as much sustain as the others and it technically doesn’t even have a cabinet.

I’m thinking that tone and sustain are two different topics and people get them confused. If you want to change sustain in a guitar, it requires a totally different process than changing the tone. I changed the pickup in my GFI and while it made a big difference in the tone, I didn’t notice even the slightest change in sustain.

Like I said, I’m no expert, but my best guess is that the stainless steel fingers on the GFI are the main reason it has so much more sustain.

Hopefully I learn something from this thread.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I've posted this before and no one ever made a comment about it but I find it very unusual and don't know whether it was for tone or sustain. What I'm talking about is I had a guitar that actually had, on underside of neck, a little hole drilled and an E tuning fork wedged into the hole in one of the neck cavities. I had taken the neck off for cleaning and discovered it. Can't remember what guitar but think it was an MCI.

If someone could comment on this and knows what it was for, I would like to know. I can understand how the tuning fork would vibrate if you played in E but what about other chords. It's a mystery to me.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Whatever is in the NEXT guitar I plan to get.

For now it must be my technique, unless I NEED a new amp.

Ed Boyd · From: Illinois, USA

I'm a new pedal steel player. What I'm fuzzy about is if downward bar pressure can have impact on sustain or if the bar pressure is heavy enough to stop all string chatter is that all you want. Pushing down too hard changes pitch.

This may not be good technique but it would feel good to dig in a little bit on lap steel or slide on rock stuff like Eric Church.

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