Dobro in an electric blues band - is it possible?

Justin Lee · Post by **Justin Lee** » 18 Dec 2016 10:14 am

I've been playing second guitar in electric blues bar bands over the last couple of years and often bring my squareneck resonator to kill time between set up and starting the show. I've gotten several positive compliments from band mates who love the sound and have asked if I could add it to the shows.

I'm not playing with anyone regularly at the moment, but plan to start attending some of the local blues jams to keep my chops up, and wonder how feasible it is to equip a squareneck resonator to play in an electric setting?

The research I've done points to a Fishman pickup paired with an Aura pedal, but $500 is hard to for me to justify spending for something I may only get to use at a blues jam or occasional tips-only bar gig. I'm wondering if there's a reasonably less expensive alternative that would allow me to walk up, plug into the house PA or guest amp, and play?

I'm sure there are many legitimate reasons for viewing this as a fool's errand, but I do wonder if any of you have tried going down this road before, and what your experience was?

Thanks for reading and sharing your stories...

Adam Tracksler · Post by **Adam Tracksler** » 18 Dec 2016 10:52 am

A microphone will get you there, I have an AT2020 that has never let me down, and it was less than $50.

John Mulligan · Post by **John Mulligan** » 18 Dec 2016 10:58 am

You can buy a cheap lap steel for way less, and it is better equipped to handle the volume. You can tune it like a dobro and go straight into your amp. You'll lose the tonality of the dobro but a mic'ed up dobro is not likely to cut it in a bar blues band.

Roman Sonnleitner · Post by **Roman Sonnleitner** » 18 Dec 2016 10:58 am

Not with a blues band, but with an Americana/roots rock band...
Used to play my dobro live with a band for a few years; I used the Lace Sensor dobro pickup (the single coil type, not the humbucker one), worked quite well (though admittedly the sound is about 50% dobro, 50% lap steel - but I also plugged into an electric guitar amp...); with that Fishman pickup, I'd be worried about feedback (since in my experience, electric blues band = LOUD!!!)

Brooks Montgomery · Post by **Brooks Montgomery** » 18 Dec 2016 11:50 am

I tried real hard to play dobro in my local dive-bar weekend-warrior blues band that I was in for the last several years. Fishman/Nashville rig, then I tried an added humbucker on the dobro, but as much as I wanted the dobro to cut it (physically,standing up, dobros are just fun to play), it just was too milk-toast for raucous blues gigs, and I have gone back to lap steel with occasional over-drive pedal. I sound better, my band-mates like it better, and I never have a lack of horsepower and I don't feedback. There are guys that sure can pull it off on a dobro, but even masters like Jerry Douglas play lap steels on rock'n bluesy numbers. Heck, even Rob Ickes (Acoustic Master Wizard) broke out lap steel on some blues numbers on his latest album with Trey Hensley.
My experience, which is worth less than two cents .

David M Brown · Post by **David M Brown** » 18 Dec 2016 12:40 pm

Just use lap steel like these guys say!

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 18 Dec 2016 2:50 pm

How about a magnetic pickup like the Slim Line Lace Sensor? Sticks on under the strings and route to an amp?

You won't get the acoustic resonator sound, but that's not what you're looking for here anyway. With the pickup, you won't have the micing and feedback hassles and you can have the volume and tones you like for electric blues. Not terribly expensive either.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 18 Dec 2016 2:51 pm

I occcasionaly play the dobro in one of my electric bands. I just use an SM57 mic
It's only been successful when the other players leave some space and the drummer uses brushes or hits lightly.
The dobro has so many interesting harmonics that get masked unfortunately the more instruments you have in the band.
I've heard the Fishman/Aura system comes closest to sounding acoustic at a decent volume level.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 18 Dec 2016 7:14 pm

If it's gotta be loud and it's the Dobro sound that you're chasing, a lap steel into an inexpensive EQ pedal, such as the common BOSS GE-7, will get you pretty close. Start by setting the sliders to resemble a football, then tweak to taste.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 18 Dec 2016 7:19 pm

Discussed many times.

_If_ you want to sound like a dobro the JD pickup/Aura combo is your best shot at a feedback resistant system.

If you can tolerate sounding lap steelish something like the Lace may be an option.

Jerry/Rob use lapsteels when they want to sound like a lapsteel not when they want to rock.

Witness the current iteration of the Douglas band, all seven pieces including horns playing at darn incredible volumes. Jerry + reso + Fishman system.

As an early adopter I unequivocally state that if you need all the benefits that the system offers there is nothing else currently like it on the market.

Expensive...Yes!

Sorry bout that.

h

Justin Lee · Post by **Justin Lee** » 19 Dec 2016 7:02 am

Great information and a wealth of ideas, which I greatly appreciate - thanks everyone!

Since I enjoy tinkering with what I have on hand, I played around with top-micing an SM58 just below and behind the cone, and fed it into the mic input of my Roland Street Cube. While it's certainly not ideal, it did help me get my head around some of the physics involved, and see some interconnections between your comments.

For what it's worth, this is what I think I've learned:

I didn't realize how much I move when I play, even when sitting down. Shifting two inches can make a noticeable difference when close-micing. Playing with a mic and being aware of your body position must be a learned skill I've taken for granted as an electric player.

Where you place the mic makes a huge difference. Positioning the mic element near the center of the cone captures the distinctive resonator sound. In contrast, positioning the mic element off the cone or over the ports makes two things happen: it makes the resonator sound more like an acoustic guitar, and decreases the dynamics. By extension, this helps me make some educated guesses about why any pickup placed between the neck and cone has trouble sounding like a resonator - they primarily capture the string vibration instead of the airspace around the cone.

Piezo placement is probably a chore to get right, most likely limits dynamics, and almost certainly requires a multiband EQ to attenuate all the non-cone frequencies that are also picked up.

Piezos and low-level, close-micing are likely to sound very dry compared to what they sound like unamplified, and probably need added reverb and/or delay to recreate a sense of space (if that makes sense.)

Cones are like the inverse of loudspeakers, which is just cool.
The best single way to amplify the desirable characteristics of a resonator is to mic the cone, but the cone also captures all the other sound in the room, which probably makes it critical for other band members to play at a lower volume level. This is probably tougher for some electric players who may rely on driving their amps into saturation to get their desired tonality, and might be at the heart of why resonators don't blend well with typical bar bands.

The best overall way to amplify a resonator in a higher volume setting is likely to involve both a mic and cone-mounted piezo, with some way to blend the two sources into a preamp with a parametric EQ, especially for the piezo source, and then into a reverb and delay before being fed to the amp or PA. Because mic response changes in relation to movement, it's probably much better to mount a small diaphragm cardioid or hypercardiod-pattern condenser mic on a very small gooseneck underneath the grill, and connected to an external power supply. Kinda makes me understand why the Nashville/Aura system is probably well worth the money, despite the number of unicorns they have to slaughter for the magic needed to make such a system work with only piezos. ðŸ˜†

But I'm just making guesses. In any case, you guys have given me a better short-order education than I would have found elsewhere in a week, and I thoroughly appreciate all your contributions!

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 19 Dec 2016 7:13 am

Cone mounted piezos have proven to be the WORST for resonator guitars. What Fishman has done is to move the piezo to the BRIDGE and taken the cone mostly out of the picture. In fact the Fishman pickup replaces the bridge insert and is slotted as an insert. This move significantly reduces the instrument's proclivity for feedback.

h

Justin Lee · Post by **Justin Lee** » 19 Dec 2016 7:18 am

Interesting! I guess the cone and piezo would be susceptible to runaway oscillation. The learning continues... Thanks Howard â˜ºï¸

Howard Parker wrote:Cone mounted piezos have proven to be the WORST for resonator guitars. What Fishman has done is to move the piezo to the BRIDGE and taken the cone mostly out of the picture. In fact the Fishman pickup replaces the bridge insert and is slotted as an insert. This move significantly reduces the instrument's proclivity for feedback.

h

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 19 Dec 2016 7:19 am

Even though this might not amount to a hill of beans I'd invite you to think of all the top players of the instrument and research which systems they've chosen in performance when they amplify (non-mic).

Hint - I'm a member of a very large club

Cheers,

hp

Justin Lee · Post by **Justin Lee** » 19 Dec 2016 7:39 am

I'm in complete agreement with you, Howard. I was just thinking out loud as I tried to understand WHY resonator amplification is complex. In the end, the solution I imagined was needlessly complex compared to the systems I believe you're referring to. I ended up at the same place you were trying to steer me towards, but the exercise of trying to think through an alternative helps me understand WHY those systems are used by top players.
Thanks again for the solid info.

Howard Parker wrote:Even though this might not amount to a hill of beans I'd invite you to think of all the top players of the instrument and research which systems they've chosen in performance when they amplify (non-mic).

Hint - I'm a member of a very large club

Cheers,

hp

Chris Bauer · Post by **Chris Bauer** » 19 Dec 2016 7:45 am

I've played in screaming loud horn bands without a pickup BUT it required both a band that fully listens to one another and plays with the required dynamics and someone out front on the soundboard who knows what they're doing.

Without both, I'd go Howard's suggested route. If there's a reasonable alternative, I sure haven't found one.

Justin Lee · Post by **Justin Lee** » 19 Dec 2016 7:52 am

I think your perspective is the perfect bookend to what Howard was saying. Thanks Chris!

Steven Meyrich · Post by **Steven Meyrich** » 19 Dec 2016 11:45 am

I have used the JD aura setup in loud situations and like Howard says it is your best best. The biggest issue is to keep some distance from the loud amps and drums that might vibrate the cone when you don't want it. I would also recommend a good preamp and I use the Radial PreZ but there are other good ones out there including Fishman. I have the pickup installed in a Schoonover modular spider but Beard also has a spider set up for it the pickup. Don't bother with the pickup unless you use the JD Aura box at the same time. Its really an amazing system and I have a bunch of mics and other pickup abandoned in the quest for resonator sound playing out.

Steve

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 19 Dec 2016 11:48 am

I'm not buying the dobro into microphone with a full on electric band option with amps and floor wedge monitors all over the stage. I have plenty of experience of frustration in this scenario.

It can work if there are few amps on stage and a number of players are going direct into the board and the drummer is not a "pounder," but that is not a very common scenario.

If not wanting to drop the big dough on the Fishman setup with the Nashville pickup coupled with the JD Aura, I would go with either an inexpensive lap steel or something like the previously mentioned Lace pickup which will also make your resonator sound like a lap steel.

I was with my church band yesterday on my upgraded Asher Electro-Hawaiian Junior lap steel with Lollar Imperial humbuckers, and Bill's "belly bar" with one of my Bobby Poff straps for standup playing.

I had been thinking for one "acousticish" song in particular, Casting Crowns arrangement of "O Come All Ye Faithful" it would have been cool to have brought my Clinesmith resonator that has the whole Fishman Aura setup. The song is in the key of G so it was right up dobro alley.

But like Jerry Douglas, I keep this 6 string lap mostly tuned to G, so in my laziness I decided not to bring the resonator, I switched to the neck pickup on the Asher for the song, played in a "dobroish" style and it worked out just fine.

For anyone who does want to play dobro plugged in a lot but doesn't want to spend the big bucks on a superior level guitar, but wants the advantages of the Fishman system which currently leaves everything else in the dust, I did a little homework earlier on eBay. I found a factory blem Gretsch Bobtail squareneck which comes with the Fishman Nashville pickup installed for $373, these normally go for about $500. And a guy had a used Jerry Douglas Aura pedal that looked clean in the photo for $269 or best offer, these are going new nowadays for $349.

The Gretsch guitar is a couple notches above entry level, some of the parts are cheesy, but plugged in through the Aura pedal can actually sound pretty good. The average person in the audience (or even among your fellow band members) won't notice much difference between the Gretsch and Scheerhorn anyway.

Justin Lee · Post by **Justin Lee** » 19 Dec 2016 12:22 pm

I understand and agree with those suggesting a lap steel, and happen to be working on a trade deal for a double neck 26" scale stringmaster. It makes sense, and it's what you'd expect to hear in the context of an electric blues band.

I think I will eventually save up for the Nashville/Aura setup on my squareneck, purely because of the interest it draws when I play it to kill time before the show. If I could make it work reasonably well in a small electric setting, I think it could be different enough to stand out in a good way. Or maybe not. But either way, I'll most certainly have fun trying it out.

Justin Lee · Post by **Justin Lee** » 19 Dec 2016 12:29 pm

Gorgeous lap steel, by the way!

Incidentally, I'm playing a well-worn Rogue squareneck hat I picked up a few months ago, and think the Gretsch may be an improvement over it, let alone a Scheerhorn ðŸ˜†

https://youtu.be/n9uR51zjySk

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 19 Dec 2016 1:48 pm

Thank you.

A couple comments: the Rogue doesn't sound bad in your video, but for playing out purposes I'm wondering if since you recorded it in April have you been working on using a thumb and fingerpicks instead of bare fingers? It makes a huge difference in playing out situations.

And when you do have the cash available, I don't think I'd put the Fishman pickup (and correct spider bridge assembly) into the Rogue. You'd have way more money into those items as modifications than the guitar is worth.

Justin Lee · Post by **Justin Lee** » 19 Dec 2016 2:14 pm

Good point on the Rogue, Mark. Thanks.

I have been playing a lot since April, both with finger picks and bare fingers. I know they make a difference when playing out but it doesn't look like that's going to happen with this instrument.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 19 Dec 2016 8:15 pm

I have fought this battle for years with only limited success. If the stage is large enough, preferably outside, you have a chance playing into a mike in a band with electric bass and drums. In a bar, It's hopeless. Even with the guys I see with the state of the art electronics, it is a compromise. It sounds pretty natural down to a certain range. the bass strings sound like an Ovation with gut strings. I don't want to start a war, but that's what my ears tell me.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 19 Dec 2016 9:55 pm

How about a lap steel into a Bobro or Goodrich dobro simulator? I think there's also a Cat-can (Marrs?) Then you could turn the resonator effect off and add some dirt for straight blues when you wish.