Rant: no more singers.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 15 Dec 2016 6:23 am

All I can say if a band or a singer of any genre doesn't appreciate your steel playing your probably playing in the wrong band. The rock god Jimmy Page played an MSA pedal steel on many Zeppelin tunes and everyone thought it was cool even the rockers. George Strait cut Fly Me To The Moon with Sinatra and everybody loved it even his country fans. Lloyd Green, Curly Chalker and Chet Atkins recorded entire albums of pop music. Pretty shallow thinking people to place a pedal steel in a box. So my conclusion is it's not the steel or the steel players fault it's closed minded people that should be ignored. I've heard players complain about the pay and I tell them it sounds like you have the wrong gig.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 15 Dec 2016 7:05 am

I don't mind playing behind a singer that knows what they are doing and I do like playing instrumentals. My biggest pet peeve in music is for a singer to start singing on your instrumental. We have several here in town that will do that, no matter what key you in or what song it is. I was playing Danny Boy one night and this guy just starts singing. I knew it was going to way to high for him so I let him go and make a fool of himself. Then he had the gall to tell me I was in the wrong key for him. I told him I wasn't playing it for him. They think that all songs have to be sung I guess.

I do think that all musicians aren't given enough credit for what they do. After all, musicians in general established the sounds of most singers. As someone said earlier in this thread, let them sing accapello and see how many like them then.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 15 Dec 2016 7:27 am

I guess the bottom line for all of us is "whatever floats your boat." If you like working with vocalists, then that's what you should do.

We all should be able to express ourselves any way we want.

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 15 Dec 2016 7:32 am

In my life I've gotten to work with some really great singers,wouldn't trade it for all the beans in Cuba!

Jim Fogarty · Post by **Jim Fogarty** » 15 Dec 2016 7:36 am

Mike Perlowin wrote:We all should be able to express ourselves any way we want.

I guess my question would be, Mike.......what's ever stopped anyone from doing just that?

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 15 Dec 2016 7:52 am

Are you kidding me Jim? The next time you have a gig, tell the singer you want to play some instrumentals and see what (s)he says.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 15 Dec 2016 8:27 am

I know what Mike is getting at. There's been a few times I've donated my time for free and although other band members mentioned my steel playing abilities and they (the singer) asked me what I would like to do they just never got around to it. I wasn't mad but not pleased. I've developed Lloyd Greens attitude. Lloyd said he is retired and he takes mental notes and remembers what gigs not to re-attend. He says he doesn't have to put up with it anymore and I don't either.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 15 Dec 2016 8:29 am

To Jim's point, why not put together an ensemble to showcase your instrumental vision?

h

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Dec 2016 8:44 am

Howard Parker wrote:To Jim's point, why not put together an ensemble to showcase your instrumental vision?

h

I put a band together for a steel show a few years back: 17 steel guitars and a bass. But we got fired from the gig... too much bass.

(Thanks to Hal Rugg for that great line!)

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 15 Dec 2016 8:57 am

Obviously a flawed vision Herb.

Maybe you were just ahead of your time!

h

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 15 Dec 2016 9:13 am

Jim Fogarty wrote:
Mike Perlowin wrote:We all should be able to express ourselves any way we want.
I guess my question would be, Mike.......what's ever stopped anyone from doing just that?

Mike Perlowin wrote: Are you kidding me Jim? The next time you have a gig, tell the singer you want to play some instrumentals and see what (s)he says.

Well, obviously there is an appropriate context for everything, and an inappropriate context. No, you don't just surprise the singer (or other bandmembers for that matter) by just springing on them that you want to play an unprepared instrumental right now. And when you do choose an instrumental, you choose one that is appropriate for the band's abilities and interests and the audience's interests and tastes. So, no, I wouldn't go to a country bar with a country band and suddenly count off "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" or "Maria" or whatever you like to play. In that sense, no, you don't get to express yourself any way you want - at that time and place. But nothing has ever stopped you (obviously), or me, from putting together ensembles to play whatever music we prefer. So, of course, you can express yourself. Whether you will draw an audience is of course a different matter... But you know all this, Mike.

Jim Fogarty · Post by **Jim Fogarty** » 15 Dec 2016 1:53 pm

Exactly.

"Expressing yourself" is free and open to everyone.

"Expressing yourself" in front of an audience? See my post above, about being entertaining.

"Expressing yourself" and getting paid and working regularly? Good luck.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 15 Dec 2016 2:10 pm

his thread can be summed up in the lyrics to an old Eisley Brothers tune;

"It's your thing.
Do what you want to do.
I can't tell you
who to sock it to."

There's lot of wisdom in that lyric.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 15 Dec 2016 2:21 pm

Jim Fogarty wrote:
"Expressing yourself" and getting paid and working regularly? Good luck.

Jim, You seem to think that the only work available is in bar bands. There is plenty of restaurant work available to instrumentalists. I played in one for 2 and 1/2 years. In fact, many of these places prefer instrumentalists who will provide a nice atmosphere, over a singer who will distract the patrons.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 15 Dec 2016 5:13 pm

One of the things I LOVE about steel is that it IS identified with country...very few instruments are identified with a genre the way steel is, and most are country...banjo (identified with bluegrass) Fiddle (cajun)Dobro,dulcimer, etc.
One of my fave instruments are steel drums, and they are ONLY identified with Caribbean music.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 15 Dec 2016 5:16 pm

This is for the OP...I have been told by many fans that they come to my gigs only to hear the steel, as I am one of the few steelers in my area. I have also been told that I am the whole band, and once someone told me this in the bathroom when they band leader was in the stall & overheard him tell me this. I kinda shrugged it off 'cause I knew he heard, but just remember...most singers KNOW that the musically sophisticated people in the club are there to hear the steel, so don't hate them...feel sorry for them.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 15 Dec 2016 6:23 pm

Bagpipes we think of Scottish music. Maybe the bagpipe players can step out and play some country on those things. AC/DC made them work on their first hit. They were the lead instrument in that song.
Maybe that's what jazz players see when they see a pedal steel is bagpipes.
I gotta post that AC/DC video. That will lay all the genre/instrument/singer issues to rest.

Jim Fogarty · Post by **Jim Fogarty** » 15 Dec 2016 6:29 pm

How about bagpipe jazz?!?!

Philly's own Rufus Harley!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HYMwRtJHV8

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 15 Dec 2016 6:39 pm

Bagpipes in jazz and hard rock. That lays that bias theory to rest. lol!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 15 Dec 2016 6:41 pm

There was also Toots Thielmanns, the jazz harmonica player. I guess the stereotype of harmonica would be old cowboy tunes and blues.

David Mitchell · Post by **David Mitchell** » 15 Dec 2016 6:51 pm

That's right. If he has a mouth harp you can guarantee we will sound like Gunsmoke and Bonanza tonight. Gail go tell him we don't allow set ins. He can go put his harps back in the car.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 15 Dec 2016 6:55 pm

Jim Fogarty wrote:How about bagpipe jazz?!?!

Philly's own Rufus Harley!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HYMwRtJHV8

OMG the drone pipes keep droning thru the chord changes!

admin · Post by **b0b** » 15 Dec 2016 10:43 pm

Bagpipes? Steel drums? Harmonicas?

Are you guys seriously comparing steel guitars with instruments that can only play in one key? Okay, I know about chromatic harmonicas, but most harmonicas aren't that. Every steel guitar made has the capability of playing any kind of music in any key. Unlike bagpipes, the stereotyping of pedal steel has nothing to do with the limitations of the instrument.

Have you ever looked at how bagpipes are tuned? It's impossible to not sound ethnic with that temperament.

Bagpipes rarely back up vocalists, I'll give them that. Nobody can sing over all that noise!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 16 Dec 2016 12:36 am

b0b wrote:Bagpipes rarely back up vocalists, I'll give them that. Nobody can sing over all that noise!

They can be very useful when dealing with door to door solicitors.

Jim Fogarty · Post by **Jim Fogarty** » 16 Dec 2016 2:49 pm

Mike Perlowin wrote:
Jim Fogarty wrote:
"Expressing yourself" and getting paid and working regularly? Good luck.
Jim, You seem to think that the only work available is in bar bands. There is plenty of restaurant work available to instrumentalists. I played in one for 2 and 1/2 years. In fact, many of these places prefer instrumentalists who will provide a nice atmosphere, over a singer who will distract the patrons.

???? I don't think I even once mentioned playing in bars, did I?

No, as a guy who earns his (meager) living from gigging 150-200x a year (guitar, mostly), my experience is that strictly instrumental gigs are few and far between, no matter what the instrument. Cocktail/dinner piano probably happens the most, with dinner/function/wedding guitar gigs being out there (though waning), too.

That's great you can play solo steel at a restaurant. I'd love to hear that! I think you have to admit that's rare, though, right?

As Jim Cohen said above........I just would have zero expectation of being able to play instrumentals on any gig where you're hired to play steel on someone else's gig. But, if you're willing and able to make your own gigs and create your own niche, then go for it! Again, I think of Susan Alcorn who has, with years of hard work, created a career for herself playing original and classical steel in a variety of venues.......often connected to avante-garde music scenes, I think. But even so, when I first met her, she was backing up a countryish singer/songwriter, playing totally idiomatic (and lovely!) E9 steel.

Why not do both?