Why Aren't Sho~buds As Good As Emmons?

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 2 Feb 2005 4:02 pm

I just have to ask respectfully... Why are Emmons Steels so much better than Sho~bud??? In all except one in Fl....

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Thanks,
Wayne Baker
Emmons Legrande d-10, w/8&5, Emmons S10 p/p
w/3&4 Nashville 400, Boss DD3.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Feb 2005 4:17 pm

Better...in what respect? Are you talking engineering and design, sound characteristics, versatility, or build quality?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Feb 2005 4:24 pm

by what standard ?
by who's opinion ?

sorry..

is this a question or a comment ?

Glad you are pleased with your Emmons Steels..

The Worlds not flat....

this makes no sense to me..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 03 February 2005 at 02:28 AM.]

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 2 Feb 2005 4:29 pm

Wayne You will have to be more specific. Shobuds undoubtedly look better than emmons but mechanically emmons are better. If you had an MSA however, you would discover that it would look better, have better mechanics, and yes!! better sound than both emmons or shobud.

Guys, seriously this is all about preference, the old chevy / ford debate! A good time to close this one!!!

LARRY COLE · Post by **LARRY COLE** » 2 Feb 2005 4:59 pm

Here we go. CLOSE IT? Why? It is bad if we can't have a discussion without having the thread closed. This is not a communist forum.
I wouldn't give my Sho-Bud Pro-1 for a truck load of Emmons push pulls. To me that is like comparing a Harley to a Jap bike. Harleys are over priced, look cool and make a lot of noise but Jap bikes are affordable, run better, ride better, require les maintainance and you don't have to have a pick up to haul them around in.

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12,SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60,GIBSON LES PAUL CUSTOM,YAMAHA L-10A ACOUSTIC,ROLAND JW-50 KEYBOARD,G&L AND BC RICH BASS'S

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 2 Feb 2005 5:29 pm

I've had both. I love the sound of both. I think from a mechanical standpoint, Emmons is better, but because of modern mechanics, materials, etc. Sho-Buds are tight and squishy. (Is that a word?) Emmons, to me, are smooth and accurate. My experience playing Sho-Bud's after playing Emmons for so long is how cool they sound, but you have to work a little harder with your technique to get that sound. Kind of like flying a vintage plane.

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 2 Feb 2005 5:32 pm

I have no dog in that fight but since it has come up,I guess I been lucky to rarely have to work on either my Emmons or my Harley.
Hook

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HookMoore.com
Allen Moore

Post by **Joey Ace** » 2 Feb 2005 5:54 pm

I can't wait for Ricky's response to this one.

Why is one songbird better than the other?
They aren't!!! They are just different.

The forest would be a dull place if all the birds sounded alike.

Sonny Priddy · Post by **Sonny Priddy** » 2 Feb 2005 6:02 pm

I've Had Bouth I Have A Sho_bud Pro111 Custom Dose That Tell Something. SONNY.

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Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 2 Feb 2005 7:32 pm

I've had my ProIII since 78, and have played thousands of paid gigs with it.

In that time, I've had more then enough money to buy whatever brand new Brand-Xer in at least the last fifteen of them. I never thought that the sound I heard out of them was "for me", or I would have.

Some of the guys I know have tried a half a dozen different guitars, and I don't know of one that now has the guitar they consider their "last one". Any quess what brand they have?

After 26 years, last year I finally sent a Sho~Bud I got 20 years ago as a "spare rehearsal rig", in to Duane Marrs to be retrofitted with the most improved design available.

Even then, the only break my ProIII will get will be when I straighten out the front apron, put a piece of angle steel behind it, and replace 4 fingers and 6 brass swivels. That and a nice new blonde varathane finish, and some decals.

In that time period alone, some people will have gone through two Brand X's.

I consider Shot Jackson and his work to be much like Mr Bigsby, and the named brand to be more of a "knock off".

Some people have better luck with "knock offs".

I guess the question is "Do you have sitting in front of you what you consider to be your "last guitar"?

I do, and it's a Sho~Bud. Shot and Buddy, for those of you that don't know what it stands for.

(..music fades....)

EJL

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 2 Feb 2005 7:46 pm

Wayne,you got my attention!!yep i'm from FL.too.i own 3 sho-buds! pro 1,professional 1970,and pro3late 70s.I have owned a brand new late nintys.emmons fell apart right in my lap.never could get it to operate right,cabinet warped bad.sound was nothing to brag on!now i'm changing from one guitar to the other.OK,you ask,first sho-bud was made 35yrs. ago,emmons legrand 2 was much later that i know of.that old professional i have will blow the doors off emmons!!yep,i'll agree the mechanics are completely different!with some work on it,it will be as smooth as butter.but i have to say i like the wood mellow sound that sho-bud has.and i didn't like the sharper sound of the emmons!i also don't care for the alum.necks on pro-3 sho-bud that much.this depends on the sound a person likes i guess.i can't help but wonder if sho-bud had stayed in bussiness,what we would have today?well i have really gave a answer i guess,so i will just say,give me a old bud anytime.speaking from my experience!! farris

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 2 Feb 2005 8:25 pm

I gotta soften my remarks some, I can see.

Many years of SHo~Buds, I didn't care for. The Fingertips are too outdated for me.

My Professional that's in the finishing stages at Duane and Jeffs, I didn't like the split axle baskets. They were just too sloppy on my guitar. seemed like a lot of rod/hole contact too. I already can't wear light pants from the lube I use under the PIII. The '69 Professional that Gary Morse plays has solid axle baskets, and it looked a lot better.

I thought the PIII and PII were the best final products of engineering. Some of the "customs" I didn't like, because then they tried to make them "like Emmonses" and I don't think they did it.

It often boils down to an "individual guitar", which is why there ara MANY individual guitars like ZBs Zums, and the whole gamut of "semi custom" made guitars that are Grade A pieces.

MSA, years ago was nothing to sneeze at either. I'd LOVE to have Danny Shields' old MSA D11.

There's only ONE brand of psg that I never liked ANY of them. None of them. I've been offered new ones at half retail and never considered them.

Recently the company was bought out and now the kid that ( 40some year old 'kid") should have been designing them to begin with, IS.

We'll see.

I think more than anything for me it's the 3/4" neck height offset, and the string spacing. Haven't seen any of them match it.

I'm looking forward to the wood necks on the Proffessional, though I've always like the aluminums on the ProIII.

Can't wait til 14 Feb...

EJL

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 2 Feb 2005 9:24 pm

I guess mainly because Shot stopped listening to Buddy's suggestions!

I started out with a PRO 1 and then an LDG and after owning several push-pulls, I wish I had started with push-pulls from the beginning! No contest, hands down!

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<A HREF="http://frankestesmba.com/" TARGET=_blank>Frank Estes
1978 Emmons D-10 8+7 #2441D
1968 Emmons D-10 8+4 #1234D</A>

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 2 Feb 2005 9:26 pm

I don't know why MSA's came into this thread. I thought the topic was a comparison of Emmons v. Sho~Bud.

Back on topic: I won't say that Sho~Buds are necessarily "not as good" as Emmonses, but I have an opinion of sorts, based on the fact that I've owned both brands, and many more than one of each. I've also owned Bigsbys, MSAs, Sierras, and Fender guitars.

Professionally, I played Sho~Bud from 1968 to 1982, when I went to Emmons.

To me, the Sho~Bud came from the Bigsby design, but soon became it's own instrument. It went through many design changes and since it was a custom guitar, many different cosmetic examples exist, with little standardization until the late 1960s. The Sho~Bud had a beautiful sound and a beautiful look, but the quality of their undercarriages and their operation were very inconsistent. Some of the older permananents looked like three different village blacksmiths worked on them, each with different opinions of how things should work. Even into the 1970's, when the guitars were somewhat standardized, there were three or four different undercarriage designs, as well as a general cheapening of the components and the assembly.

The Emmons Original ("push-pull") undercarriage had very few changes once the intial design was set, and basically was unaltered throughout its lifetime, 1964-89. Whereas the Sho-Bud was large and relatively gaudy, the Emmons was the anti-Bud, smaller, conservative and almost European (Scandinavian) in design. From its inception, the Emmons could operationally raise AND lower strings as needed, while the Sho-Bud was definitely behind the curve mechanically and relied on looks and their position in the marketplace for sales.

Some vintages of Sho~Buds are not as desireable as others... pot metal components, hard to tune rack/barrel undercarriages, the "Baldwin Crossover," etc., but Emmons Originals are pretty much sought after regardless of vintage, with special emphasis on the 1964-68 guitars.

I have a beautiful 1969 Sho~Bud Custom at Duane Marrs' right now being modernized. I look forward to playing it. My main guitars, however, are Emmons Originals from 1964 and 1965.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 2 Feb 2005 9:48 pm

That's a very general question; as there were 15 different model Sho-buds and probably 10 different changes within each model and that almost goes for the Emmons.
It's funny how folks with Generalize and say: "I had a Sho-bud once; and it did this or that" and that is there summary of all Sho-bud....ha....and that almost goes for the Emmons too. You can't generalize about a Sho-bud or Emmons; just from playing ONE or Two; hell 5 different once for that matter; as there were so many different factors that made one play/sound different from the next.
So what's the next question??? As this one is not a valid question at all in my book; and cannot be answered by any normal thinking person.
Ricky

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 2 Feb 2005 10:07 pm

Everybody shut up and listen.. I'm talking!

1 Why the hell is pork so much better than beef" ?

2 Why are blondes great and redheads hideous?

.3> Why does day suck and night rock?

4. The sky is blue and trees are green.. which is better??

5 Why do dogs bite and cats scratch.?

6 Why is cold cold and hot hot?

7 Why do some guys ask these questions and some don't??

8 Why am I here instead of not being here?

.... apples and oranges.. apples and oranges ... apples and oranges... apples and oranges... If we repeat it long enough,, it MAY sink in.. apples and oranges apples and oranges

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Feb 2005 12:32 am

Everybody talk at once and not listen..

1 Why the hell is rabbit so much better than pork" ?

2 Why are red heads great and blonds, in theory, dumb?

.3 Why does night get blue first and Jimmy Day rock?

4. The sky is gray and trees are brown.. which is better??

5 Why do dogs scratch doors and cats scratch couches.?

6 Why do you get burned by super cold things.?
Like liquid nitrogen and some women...

7 Why do some guys ask these questions and some women don't??

8 How can you be two places at once,
when you're not anywhere at all?

.
Grapes and pomegranites,

Each has it's strong points and detractioons.
I want one of each, but for very different reasons.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 February 2005 at 06:52 AM.]

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 3 Feb 2005 3:11 am

Why have so many professional players and some legends including Lloyd Green had their Shobuds retrofitted by Duane Marrs and associates?

The fact is they had mechanical defeciencies and my 1982 LDG model was a prime example.

Has anyone ever heard of Emmons having their mechanics retrofitted?

Or my 1974 MSA Classic, it has not been retrofitted nor will it ever have to be. Its mechanics are perfect!!
tbh

Chuck McGill · Post by **Chuck McGill** » 3 Feb 2005 4:00 am

Talk about pokin a wasp nest

Clyde Lane · Post by **Clyde Lane** » 3 Feb 2005 5:08 am

Why have so many professional players and legends including John Hughey switched to something other than Sho-Bud or Emmons.
Sho-Bud's are not made anymore.

Clyde

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Feb 2005 6:14 am

Clyde.. true.. MANY steel players HAVE switch to more modern instruments.. NO debate there. Still LOTS of guys using vintage steels though.. LOTS of them.

That still doesn't answer the Emmons BETTER than BUD question... Emmons mechanism is certainly more stable as a rule .

However, MSA the mechanism is more stable and reliable than either the Bud or the Emmons IMHO...Does that mean MSA is BETTER than Bud and EMMONS??..

Lots of guys would PREFER a Bud for the tone. Does that Make it better?? .. Same for Emmons,ZB,Marlen,Carter,Fulawka,Williams, Franklin,Zum,Derby,Mullen,BMI,GFI,MCI,EMCI,Fender,Anapeg,Rusler,Fessy,Dekley,MSA, LaMarr, Pedalmaster,and probably a dozen others that I can't think of... They are ALL good.. Every one of them.. Guys that ask the "which is better" question need to be more specific... Better at what??

1 Tone??.. I like icepicks you like mud

2 Mechanical?? You like Chevy I like Ford.

3 Looks ? You like blondes I like redheads

Steel guitars have to be good or they won't last on the market.. They WILL be exposed quickly in this tight knit community.. Junk is NOT around for long... Let me repeat what I wrote previously.. just one last time... APPLES and ORANGES...bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 03 February 2005 at 06:15 AM.][This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 03 February 2005 at 06:17 AM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 3 Feb 2005 6:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"
Has anyone ever heard of Emmons having their mechanics retrofitted?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but it's seldom an improvement.
The newer bell cranks are common,and an improvement IMO, more holes=more adjustment options.

Bobbe had one in his shop a few months ago that was a Push Pull converted to an All Pull.

At the time somebody must of thought it was a good idea. Now we know that this very expensive modification only decreased the value of the guitar. [This message was edited by Joey Ace on 03 February 2005 at 06:18 AM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Feb 2005 6:22 am

David D.. that response was perfect...could not have have cleared this mess up better!! Pithy and to the point! NOW I understand!!.You are a brilliant and most likely a handsome and sweet smelling young man!

bob

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 3 Feb 2005 6:22 am

You know, it's a shame Lloyd Green didn't realize he was playing such an inferior instrument. Might would have had a good career if he'd played something other than Sho~Bud. I'll bet too, that Buddy would have been remembered for his playing on Nightlife if he'd played something other than a Sho~Bud then too. Another thing, you know Pete Drake might have made a living in Nashville if he'd only played a better brand.

Oh well, what did any of those guys know about steel guitars anyway?

Lem[This message was edited by Lem Smith on 03 February 2005 at 06:24 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 3 Feb 2005 6:34 am

Saw the post heading and thought, "somebody's got some gasoline and wants to go play with hornets". Oh well, live and learn.