Sierra Session Tunable Split ?

mickd · From: london,england

From doing a forum search, I know that you can achieve a tunable split on a Session by adding an extra raise..but how ?
How does it work ?
(I've tried to work it out from first principles & just ended up with a sore head

)

[This message was edited by mickd on 05 June 2003 at 02:26 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Ok Mickd

1. Locate the lower pullrod that you wish to "split".

2. Locate the bellcrank for this pull rod.

3. Add a raise rod to this bellcrank and feed it thru an unused raise hole in the changer for the string you wish to split.

That concludes the installation. Now you tune it as follows:

1. Adjust the raise normally.

2. Leave the raise engaged and engage the lower for that raised string. The split note should be sharp.

3. Use the lower nylon tuner for that string to lower the note until the split is in tune.

Release the raise keeping the lower engaged. The lower should be quite flat now.

4. Use that additional raise rod to bring the lower back up to pitch.

If you find yourself chasing your tail, back off all adjustments until they have NO affect and repeat the above. A little practice and it becomes quite simple.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Sierra makes an optional part that allows splits without adding a rod. It works by stopping the finger with a set screw. Joe Wright has one on his guitar.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

mickd · From: london,england

Carl
thanks - does this mean that when you engage the lower by itself (as you will be doing most of the time), you'll be engaging both a raise and a lower (fighting against each other)

? . Sounds weird , but whatever works..
B0b
does this part you refer to require a factory fit or is it something you can easily do yourself ?
Thanks
Mick

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Mickd,

Yes, you are quite correct. Because of the "sharp" split (ET), it is necessary to flatten the note to bring it in tune. This means the normal lower is toooo flat. So it must be brought back up.

There are two ways to do this that I know of:

1. Using an extra raise rod as we have discussed. In this case the raise rod fights th lower to keep the lower in tune.

2. The EMmons' LeGrande way is where they limit the amount of lower travel using a block and a set screw to the right of the changer on the top of the guitar. This is what Sierra is now offering as a mod. And Yes it can be retrofitted to any of their Steels.

Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages.

The extra rod method uses up a raise hole that you might need for something else.

The Emmons set screw method prevents any other lower from going below what the set screw is set at.

The reason some players can get away with not doing either method, is they do not tune straight ET. IE, if they tune somewhere between JI and ET they may just hit it lucky and have the split be close. But for those of us that have very critical ears, it would never be close enough without compensation.

carl

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

There are two different tunable split options from Sierra. One is an aluminum bar with set screws that requires some hole drilling and tapping (I think). That's what Joe Wright has. I wouldn't try to install it myself.

The other thing is a little gadget that clamps onto the changer. It can tune a split for just one string or for two adjacent strings. I used one for a while. Don Christensen invented it to solve a problem and I got the impression that it isn't publicized, but I would ask them about it.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

mickd · From: london,england

I tune to the Jeff Newman chart, which I think is more or less JI.
So, I tune 5th string (B) to +8
B + A pedal (C#) to -6
B + X lever (Bb) to +2.

If I engage A then X, I get C +22
But if I engage X then A, I get C+12.

Is this asymmetry normal ?
Will it make either of the tunable split methods less accurate ?
Do I have to go to ET in order to do a tunable split anyway ?
What was your experience of the gizmo B0b - did you stop using it because it wasn't accurate enough or because you just didn't use the split much ?

[This message was edited by mickd on 07 June 2003 at 09:41 AM.]

mickd · From: london,england

I emailed Sierra, and they no longer market the gizmo for the tunable split.
That leaves me with the extra raise method. Trouble is, all 3 raise slots are used up at the end plate.
However, the Session manual says I can add a 4th raise by using a 'tandem' arrangement, whereby a pull rod with no bushings in a lower slot on the changer engages with a neighbouring pull rod already configured with a raise (when you see the diagram it does make sense

) so I will try that (has anyone ever done this ?).
I should be able to bodge a tandem gizmo using a small block of wood with 2 holes drilled, and I have a spare pull rod

[This message was edited by mickd on 13 July 2003 at 02:57 PM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Mick,

I have 3 tandem pulls on my Sierra Session S-14. They work well, just as the manual says. I used the original Sierra parts. In addition to the aluminum block (I guess hard wood should work as well) you'll need 2 collars with set screws. Install them according to the manual, i.e. without any nylon bushings at the changer end, and you'll have your tunable split.

For any U-12 or U-14, triple raise and double lower changer just isn't enough - unless you have split tuning screws a la Emmons LeGrande. An Excel 5R/5L changer would be nice! :-)

I emailed you some pics of my tandems. Hope I didn't clutter up your mailbox!

Rainer
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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 13 July 2003 at 04:45 PM.]

mickd · From: london,england

Rainer
thanks for the pix

Looks like you're using them on strings 2 & 5 - is that right ? I can see how you might need more than 3 raises on 5, but I'm surprised 3 wasn't enough on 2..tell us more.
I'll try to do a DIY job first and if I make some progress I'll probably order the pukka parts from Sierra (it can take a while for stuff to get here from the West Coast, as you probably know)
Mick

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Mick,

I have 3 tandem pulls on the S-14:
1 - to get 4 raises on string 5. 1st raise: A pedal B-C#, 2nd: C pedal B-C#, 3rd: pedal 7 B-C#, 4th tunable split A pedal with LKV B-Bb=C

2 - to get 3 lowers on string 2. 1st lower D#-D, 2nd: D#-C#, 3rd: D#-C# again for the lock lever

3 - to get 3 lowers on string 8. 1st: E-D# on RKL, 2nd: D#-D on pedal 6 with RKL or change lock, 3rd: E-D# on the change lock

I have the change lock on an extra LKL that I use ONLY for the lock. I can't lock the "normal" E-D# lever (RKL), because the locking mechanism has to be mounted onto the back apron and the pickup switch is in the way. Also: I wouldn't need 2 of these tandem pulls, if the Sierra had a triple lower changer and not just a double lower.

The copedent looks like this:



      Lock


     (LKL)   LKL   LKV   LKR   A   B   C   4   5   6   7   8   RKL   RKR


 1 F#                    +G                   +G


 2 D# -C#                                                      -C#   -D


 3 G#                             +A


 4 E  -D#    +F                       +F#         +F           -D#


 5 B               -Bb        +C#     +C# -A          +C#


 6 G#                    -F#      +A      -F#         +A#


 7 F#                                         -F


 8 E  -D#    +F                       +F#         -D           -D#


 9 D  -C#                                                            -C#


10 B                          +C#                          +C


11 G#                             +A


12 E                                          +F           -D#


13 B                                          +C#          -G#


14 E

Running the tandem rod through a lower hole in the changer is not the only option. You can use either a raise or a lower hole, and it can go through a changer finger to the left or the right of the one that doesn't have enough raise or lowering capabilities. In fact, the split tuning rod that I use on string 5 has to go through a hole on the 3rd finger, because on fingers 4, 5, and 6 all the holes are being used already. It was a bit of a squeeze to make it work without the rods binding, but eventually it worked.

Hope to have helped,
Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Heres a pic of how we triple lower a string, I might add all our newer Sierras have the 3 and 3 on them...
[img]

[/img]

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DavidWright.us
Sierra Guitars

Sierra S-12 9&7
Peavey-2000-PX-300

[This message was edited by David Wright on 14 July 2003 at 02:00 PM.]

mickd · From: london,england

Rainer
looks like you've already done exactly what I want to do (A pedal split with X lever on 5 using a tandem pull). I won't need to span further than a neighbouring string though (did you have to get a block made specially for this or is the standard one adjustable for width ?). Schoen dank

David
nice pic - wish my guitar underside looked that clean

Mick

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Mick,

you´re welcome!

The blocks I used are the standard Sierra tandem blocks, they are all the same width and they are certainly not adjustable - just an aluminum block with two holes drilled into them. In order to be able to use a 3rd string changer hole for a pull on string 5, I slid the tandem assembly farther away from the changer towards the bell cranks, thus making the curve in the rods less pronounced. It was a little tricky to find a place where the block would not bind with any of the many pull rods in the undercarriage.

In addition to the split on string 5 I also have a split on string 6 (B pedal with G# to F# lower on LKR), but I don't need a tandem assembly for that.

If you order the parts from Sierra be sure to insist on air mail delivery. Surface freight from Oregon to Europe can easily take ten weeks.

If you have any more questions feel free to email me anytime.

Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

mickd · From: london,england

well, I did it

!
thanks to all for the help.
The way I've set it up is pretty ropy, but it will do for now and now that I understand the principle I can do it better later.

One more thing - I use Just Intonation (the Jeff Newman chart) which has :
string 5 open = +8
5+A (C#) = -6 .

My split C is coming up at about -12 and sounds ok to me with various chords. Is there a common JI value that people use for this note ?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Hey Ranier, can you re-ppost those pics.
I am very interested now.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Or DW you have the old PIC?

mickd · From: london,england

my temporary setup proved a bit *too* ropy

Now that Sierra are rolling again, I'd like to get a few of the pukka Sierra units..

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