Always looking for ways to use the B-lower lever (on my Mullen, it's the LKV). It's one of the (many) things I use least...And I think there have been quite a few threads on this subject from confused intermediates like myself...
Was fooling around earlier and realized that while lowering the Es (yielding a minor on strings 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3), you can lower your Bs for a cool minor 9th chord.
Engage and release the B-lower repeatedly to hear the minor 9th sound/effect. You can use this trick on the 6 chord of a major key or the 1 chord of a minor key.
Accidental cool voicing w/B-lower lever
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Nathan Delacretaz
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Glenn Suchan
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Nathan,
It's been a long time since I've seen a post from you. Welcome back to the fray.
With the E to Eb kneelever engaged the Eb (or D#) becomes the 5th interval; The G# is the root and the B is the flat 3 interval. Do you lower both the 5th and 10th strings with your LKV? If so, when you lower the B another half step it becomes the 9th interval. So, you have the 1, 5 and 9 intervals of the chord (G#9th). Adding the 9th by itself will not indicate a minor. However, if the bass player is covering the B note it would become G#m9. None the less, it is a cool way to go from the VI minor to the VI 9th.
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 13 January 2005 at 06:55 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 13 January 2005 at 06:58 AM.]</p></FONT>
It's been a long time since I've seen a post from you. Welcome back to the fray.
With the E to Eb kneelever engaged the Eb (or D#) becomes the 5th interval; The G# is the root and the B is the flat 3 interval. Do you lower both the 5th and 10th strings with your LKV? If so, when you lower the B another half step it becomes the 9th interval. So, you have the 1, 5 and 9 intervals of the chord (G#9th). Adding the 9th by itself will not indicate a minor. However, if the bass player is covering the B note it would become G#m9. None the less, it is a cool way to go from the VI minor to the VI 9th.
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 13 January 2005 at 06:55 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 13 January 2005 at 06:58 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Nathan Delacretaz
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Glenn - yeah, been on a break from the forum (and pretty much all surfing for that matter)...Non-stop work and parenthood! Good to be back a little more frequently.
You're right - that voicing does in fact wipe out the minor 3rd! The bad news I was too eager in my analysis, the good news is that the voicing can be used in a major context too! ha
You're right - that voicing does in fact wipe out the minor 3rd! The bad news I was too eager in my analysis, the good news is that the voicing can be used in a major context too! ha
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Terry Sneed
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>you can lower your Bs for a cool minor 9th chord.
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Will someone help me to understand what a minor 9th is. I know nothin about 3rds, 5ths 9ths etc. I would like to learn more about the chords I'm hittin. I know the names of most of my major, my 7ths, and my minors . but how do I know if I'm hittin a minor 9th or minor 6th, or the 5th interval etc? And I'd liketo know what the third note of the scale, or 5th note of the scale means. Is there a website that shows all this stuff, or do you have to have a degree in music to understand it? Thanks for any help I can get on this.
Terry
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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Will someone help me to understand what a minor 9th is. I know nothin about 3rds, 5ths 9ths etc. I would like to learn more about the chords I'm hittin. I know the names of most of my major, my 7ths, and my minors . but how do I know if I'm hittin a minor 9th or minor 6th, or the 5th interval etc? And I'd liketo know what the third note of the scale, or 5th note of the scale means. Is there a website that shows all this stuff, or do you have to have a degree in music to understand it? Thanks for any help I can get on this.
Terry
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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord
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Frank Dartt
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Nathan Delacretaz
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Hey fellas,
There is no easy way to lay out a decade or more of music theory, and I'm still no expert, but to answer one isolated question: "what is a minor 9th"... Here's my crack at it:
Sit down at a piano and, starting at C, look at all the white keys. This business of 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths boils down to this:
If you play:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
You get the numbers:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
For purposes of modern jazz notation, 2 octaves is the space you're dealing with.
Building chords involves "stacking thirds", which means skipping over every other note from your starting point - diatonically (meaning the notes that belong to the key your in).
So...a C major chord using this formula is C,E,G or 1,3,5. A C major 7 is some combination of 1,3,5,7. A C major 9 is some combination of 1,3,5,7,9. A C major 11 is some combination of 1,3,5,7,9,11. And so on.
But the "quality" of the chord is determined by the 3rd, or note 3, of the chord. Major chords have a major, or natural 3 (the white "E" key on the piano). Minor chords have a minor, or flatted 3 (the black "Eb" key on the piano)...
So to imply a major 9th chord, you need to - at least - play a major 3 (E in this example) and a 9 (D voiced above the E). To imply a minor 9th chord, you need to - at least - play a minor 3 (Eb in this example) and a 9 (D voiced above the E). You can include any of the 1s and 5s - but the bass normally covers the 1s. The idea is to capture the notes that form the "flavor" of the chord...
So that's my way of thinking of it, but I am biased by years of trying to figure this stuff out and apply it on guitar...
Good luck in your musical searching - I hope you find what you're looking for!
There is no easy way to lay out a decade or more of music theory, and I'm still no expert, but to answer one isolated question: "what is a minor 9th"... Here's my crack at it:
Sit down at a piano and, starting at C, look at all the white keys. This business of 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths boils down to this:
If you play:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
You get the numbers:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
For purposes of modern jazz notation, 2 octaves is the space you're dealing with.
Building chords involves "stacking thirds", which means skipping over every other note from your starting point - diatonically (meaning the notes that belong to the key your in).
So...a C major chord using this formula is C,E,G or 1,3,5. A C major 7 is some combination of 1,3,5,7. A C major 9 is some combination of 1,3,5,7,9. A C major 11 is some combination of 1,3,5,7,9,11. And so on.
But the "quality" of the chord is determined by the 3rd, or note 3, of the chord. Major chords have a major, or natural 3 (the white "E" key on the piano). Minor chords have a minor, or flatted 3 (the black "Eb" key on the piano)...
So to imply a major 9th chord, you need to - at least - play a major 3 (E in this example) and a 9 (D voiced above the E). To imply a minor 9th chord, you need to - at least - play a minor 3 (Eb in this example) and a 9 (D voiced above the E). You can include any of the 1s and 5s - but the bass normally covers the 1s. The idea is to capture the notes that form the "flavor" of the chord...
So that's my way of thinking of it, but I am biased by years of trying to figure this stuff out and apply it on guitar...
Good luck in your musical searching - I hope you find what you're looking for!
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Mark van Allen
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To build a little on what Nathan's posted, let's look at a couple of scales.
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
D E F# G A B C# D E F# G A B C# D
E F# G# A B C# D# E F#G# A B C# D# E
F G A Bb C D E F G A Bb C D E F
G A B C D E F# G A B C D E F# G
A B C# D E F# G# A B C# D E F# G# A
</pre></font>
These are a few of the major scales in two octaves. By looking at them you can see where the "key signatures" in written music come from- C has no flats or sharps, while G has one, D has two, and so on. This is also why F is written as a "flat" key, because to notate the Bb note as an A# would make it impossible to write both A natural and A# on the music staff, so it's written (and referred to) as A natural and Bb.
As Nathan discussed, chords in our musical system are built in "thirds" or every other note from the scales. (called "thirds, because the notes are three scale steps apart, including the note you start from). A major chord uses the 1st, 3rd, and 5th of the scale, so C major would be C-E-G, D major would be D-F#-A, E major would be E-G#-B, and so on. Adding the next "third" from the scale, or the 7th degree (scale note), gives major 7th chords or C-E-G-B, D-F#-A-C#, E-G#-B-D# etc. Adding the next "third" interval (the ninth) gives major ninth chords C-E-G-B-D, D-F#-A-C#-E, E-G#-B-D-F#. (You can see why it's called a "ninth"- we've just continued on upward from the seventh, skipping over the root we've already used in the chord). This contiunues on, always using stacks of "third" intervals, to build major 11th and thirteenth chords. (All the notes don't have to be played, just the ones that bring out the color of the chord.)
Those are how the chords in the Major family are built. The Minor family chords are all the same stacks of thirds, but always with a flatted third and seventh- so a C minor chord is spelled C-Eb-G, a C minor seventh is C-Eb-G-Bb, and a C minor ninth is C-Eb-G-Bb-D.
The third Chord family are the Dominants, which are formed the same way as the Major family, but always with the 7th note flatted. So- C7= C-E-G-Bb C9= C-E-G-Bb-D, etc.
Where this gets interesting is in the structure of "Key" itself- if you continue this chord building, always in thirds, starting from each note in the scale, you get a series of chords. For example, from the C scale, four note chords from each note of the scale would yield:
C-E-G-B
D-F-A-C
E-G-B-D
F-A-C-E
G-B-D-F
A-C-E-G
B-D-F-A
Comparing these chords to their "own" scales, ie: comparing the D chord tones to the D scale, we find that these chords are:
C maj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj7, Gdom7, Amin7, Bmin7flat5. If we take the time to go through all the scales this way, we see the same pattern always holds true, and that for every scale we get a set of 7 chords that end up being 1 maj7, 2min7, 3min7, 4maj7, 5dom7, 6min7, and 7min7b5. This is really what we're talking about when we refer to the "key" of a song, and is why a song like "Help me make it through the night" is played as C-F-G in "C", D-G-A in "D", E-A-B in "E" and so on. Also why that simple three chord progression is referred to as a "I-IV-V", since those are the chords built on the first, fourth, and fifth scale degrees. Adding another chord such as in "Take me home country roads" would give us C-Am-G-F in the key of C, or chords built on the I-VIm-V-IV degrees. So transposing to any other key, we find that chord progression on the 1st, 6th(minor), 5th, and 4th degrees, or in G= G-Em-D-C. And so on. Although there are places where taste and musical "rules" may affect our choices, any of these chords can be extended to 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths... so a jazzier version of "take me home" might be played as: Gmaj7-Em9-D13-Cmaj11 for instance. This just scratches the surface of basic music theory, but it all starts and is built on those 7 numbers and the intervals they represent. How to find/use this on your guitar? Start with your open E9th tuning, compare it to the E scale above. If you're playing an E chord on say, strings 8,5 and 6, you'd be playing the notes E,G# and B. And that's why it's an E major chord. If you drop your thumb down to the 9th string, you're replacing the E root note with a D- the flat 7 note of E, and since the Bass or other instrument is probably "speaking" the root, you are voicing an E7th chord. Going back to your E major voicing, if you reach out and play the 2nd string D# note, you're adding the major 7 note into the mix for Emaj7. Play it and you'll hear the "Misty" schmaltzy or smooth jazzy sound that note adds. Flatting that string with your knee lever to D again gives you the flat 7 or Dominant sound, but this time on top. If you go to each chord position and run through all of the scale notes available on pedals and levers, and by moving the bar, you can see and find how to play any chord extention you want or need. Hope this helps some. Theory can be a deep subject, but just takes some study and the rewards are enormous.
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
D E F# G A B C# D E F# G A B C# D
E F# G# A B C# D# E F#G# A B C# D# E
F G A Bb C D E F G A Bb C D E F
G A B C D E F# G A B C D E F# G
A B C# D E F# G# A B C# D E F# G# A
</pre></font>
These are a few of the major scales in two octaves. By looking at them you can see where the "key signatures" in written music come from- C has no flats or sharps, while G has one, D has two, and so on. This is also why F is written as a "flat" key, because to notate the Bb note as an A# would make it impossible to write both A natural and A# on the music staff, so it's written (and referred to) as A natural and Bb.
As Nathan discussed, chords in our musical system are built in "thirds" or every other note from the scales. (called "thirds, because the notes are three scale steps apart, including the note you start from). A major chord uses the 1st, 3rd, and 5th of the scale, so C major would be C-E-G, D major would be D-F#-A, E major would be E-G#-B, and so on. Adding the next "third" from the scale, or the 7th degree (scale note), gives major 7th chords or C-E-G-B, D-F#-A-C#, E-G#-B-D# etc. Adding the next "third" interval (the ninth) gives major ninth chords C-E-G-B-D, D-F#-A-C#-E, E-G#-B-D-F#. (You can see why it's called a "ninth"- we've just continued on upward from the seventh, skipping over the root we've already used in the chord). This contiunues on, always using stacks of "third" intervals, to build major 11th and thirteenth chords. (All the notes don't have to be played, just the ones that bring out the color of the chord.)
Those are how the chords in the Major family are built. The Minor family chords are all the same stacks of thirds, but always with a flatted third and seventh- so a C minor chord is spelled C-Eb-G, a C minor seventh is C-Eb-G-Bb, and a C minor ninth is C-Eb-G-Bb-D.
The third Chord family are the Dominants, which are formed the same way as the Major family, but always with the 7th note flatted. So- C7= C-E-G-Bb C9= C-E-G-Bb-D, etc.
Where this gets interesting is in the structure of "Key" itself- if you continue this chord building, always in thirds, starting from each note in the scale, you get a series of chords. For example, from the C scale, four note chords from each note of the scale would yield:
C-E-G-B
D-F-A-C
E-G-B-D
F-A-C-E
G-B-D-F
A-C-E-G
B-D-F-A
Comparing these chords to their "own" scales, ie: comparing the D chord tones to the D scale, we find that these chords are:
C maj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj7, Gdom7, Amin7, Bmin7flat5. If we take the time to go through all the scales this way, we see the same pattern always holds true, and that for every scale we get a set of 7 chords that end up being 1 maj7, 2min7, 3min7, 4maj7, 5dom7, 6min7, and 7min7b5. This is really what we're talking about when we refer to the "key" of a song, and is why a song like "Help me make it through the night" is played as C-F-G in "C", D-G-A in "D", E-A-B in "E" and so on. Also why that simple three chord progression is referred to as a "I-IV-V", since those are the chords built on the first, fourth, and fifth scale degrees. Adding another chord such as in "Take me home country roads" would give us C-Am-G-F in the key of C, or chords built on the I-VIm-V-IV degrees. So transposing to any other key, we find that chord progression on the 1st, 6th(minor), 5th, and 4th degrees, or in G= G-Em-D-C. And so on. Although there are places where taste and musical "rules" may affect our choices, any of these chords can be extended to 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths... so a jazzier version of "take me home" might be played as: Gmaj7-Em9-D13-Cmaj11 for instance. This just scratches the surface of basic music theory, but it all starts and is built on those 7 numbers and the intervals they represent. How to find/use this on your guitar? Start with your open E9th tuning, compare it to the E scale above. If you're playing an E chord on say, strings 8,5 and 6, you'd be playing the notes E,G# and B. And that's why it's an E major chord. If you drop your thumb down to the 9th string, you're replacing the E root note with a D- the flat 7 note of E, and since the Bass or other instrument is probably "speaking" the root, you are voicing an E7th chord. Going back to your E major voicing, if you reach out and play the 2nd string D# note, you're adding the major 7 note into the mix for Emaj7. Play it and you'll hear the "Misty" schmaltzy or smooth jazzy sound that note adds. Flatting that string with your knee lever to D again gives you the flat 7 or Dominant sound, but this time on top. If you go to each chord position and run through all of the scale notes available on pedals and levers, and by moving the bar, you can see and find how to play any chord extention you want or need. Hope this helps some. Theory can be a deep subject, but just takes some study and the rewards are enormous.
------------------
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
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Terry Sneed
- Posts: 4643
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Jeff Blackwell
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Thanks Mark and Nathan. This gives me more concise info on music theory than I've been able to find in the past few months of searching!
Study...practice, practice, practice!
I LOVE this instrument.
Jeff
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Jeff Blackwell
Emmons D-10 LeGrande
www.steelguitargear.com
Study...practice, practice, practice!
I LOVE this instrument.
Jeff
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Jeff Blackwell
Emmons D-10 LeGrande
www.steelguitargear.com
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John McGann
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- Location: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
- Contact:
another quick and dirty (and just rewording the above great material) is that a minor 9th is a minor chord with the 9th (same as 2nd) of the scale- that's in the higher octave, which is why the number 9 is used rather than 2. The basic chords (minor, major) are less than an octave total span.Think of your chords spanning two octaves as "extended chords". So if the chord is an Em and you play and F# on it, there you go. To get this in your ear, play just the basic chord. Sing the root, and sing the minor scale up to the root (upper octave). Sing one more note higher ('re' as in do-re-mi) and listen how it sounds against the chord. A little tense, very colorful.
That's often called (in these parts) Emadd9, because it's a triad E G B to which you add 9- F#... Em9 usually implies the b7 or EGBDF#. Hard to find a complete voicing on it on E9, which is one reason why you see those C6th changes Buddy uses on JUST THE UPPER OCTAVE- so you can keep the basic chord below and alter the upper note. On the E9, the change that gives you that b3rd (like the common split 6th string lower w/pedal B) takes away the F# on the 1st string...the 4th and 8th lower has that effect on both octaves obviously...and Buddy's E9 Chord Vocabulary has no entry for a minor 9th. So you wind up playing a partial chord to imply it (you can do that, you don't need all the notes of an extended chord- the 5th is usually the first to go, and in fact for jazz you can play just the 3rd and 7th to define any chord)...
Don't sweat the lingo, it's just ways to describe sound, just like math is a way to describe a seashell. You don't need the math to enjoy the shell! It's all SOUND. It's just handy to have a way to organize it and keep track of it.
Oh yeah- C6th, pedal 7. Strangs 8-4.
there's your Am9 or Amadd9. Include the 3rd string for a bonus 11th (same as 4th, octave higher, great note for a minor chord).
Say, it's a little G chord on strangs 345. So that Am7911 is really like a G trad over an Am chord...
Welcome to jazz harmony. Wait, where you boys goin'?
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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 14 January 2005 at 04:01 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 14 January 2005 at 04:05 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 14 January 2005 at 04:09 PM.]</p></FONT>
That's often called (in these parts) Emadd9, because it's a triad E G B to which you add 9- F#... Em9 usually implies the b7 or EGBDF#. Hard to find a complete voicing on it on E9, which is one reason why you see those C6th changes Buddy uses on JUST THE UPPER OCTAVE- so you can keep the basic chord below and alter the upper note. On the E9, the change that gives you that b3rd (like the common split 6th string lower w/pedal B) takes away the F# on the 1st string...the 4th and 8th lower has that effect on both octaves obviously...and Buddy's E9 Chord Vocabulary has no entry for a minor 9th. So you wind up playing a partial chord to imply it (you can do that, you don't need all the notes of an extended chord- the 5th is usually the first to go, and in fact for jazz you can play just the 3rd and 7th to define any chord)...
Don't sweat the lingo, it's just ways to describe sound, just like math is a way to describe a seashell. You don't need the math to enjoy the shell! It's all SOUND. It's just handy to have a way to organize it and keep track of it.
Oh yeah- C6th, pedal 7. Strangs 8-4.
there's your Am9 or Amadd9. Include the 3rd string for a bonus 11th (same as 4th, octave higher, great note for a minor chord).
Say, it's a little G chord on strangs 345. So that Am7911 is really like a G trad over an Am chord...
Welcome to jazz harmony. Wait, where you boys goin'?
------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 14 January 2005 at 04:01 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 14 January 2005 at 04:05 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 14 January 2005 at 04:09 PM.]</p></FONT>
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RON PRESTON
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Les Pierce
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Seriously guys, take the time to study all the great lessons in this post. I know it's easier to throw the directions away and just start throwing things together, but try to take in at least a little of the information like this, every chance you get. It really helps to speak the language, at least a little, and it might just pay off in a good way, someday.
Les
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Strat,Tele
Dekley S-10
Les
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Strat,Tele
Dekley S-10
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Pete Burak
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Delbert Aldredge
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Bobby Lee
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Delbert: as far as I know, Jimmy Day didn't lower his B strings. Click here.
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Gary Shepherd
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Just so ron will know... (don't take offense please)...
It's do - re - mi - fa - sol - la - ti do.
I play a lot of scrabble and, as a math teacher, I love to correct spelling errors - except my own.
No charge.
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Gary Shepherd
Sierra Session D-10
www.16tracks.com
It's do - re - mi - fa - sol - la - ti do.
I play a lot of scrabble and, as a math teacher, I love to correct spelling errors - except my own.
No charge.
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Gary Shepherd
Sierra Session D-10
www.16tracks.com
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Gary Shepherd
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By the way...
For any of you who don't know any music theory, finding time to take a basic music theory class (probably called "rudiments of music") will be the most helpful thing you'll ever do in your musical endeavors.
After playing guitar and BANJO for about 5 years, and doing pretty well I thought, I took a rudiments class in college. Suddenly, all of the things I had been playing (and trying to play) made sense. And after another year of actual theory, I could listen to and write down any music I heard. Or I could hum it and write it. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how nice it is to be able to hear something and know exactly what that sound translates to on paper and thusly on your instrument.
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Gary Shepherd
Sierra Session D-10
www.16tracks.com
For any of you who don't know any music theory, finding time to take a basic music theory class (probably called "rudiments of music") will be the most helpful thing you'll ever do in your musical endeavors.
After playing guitar and BANJO for about 5 years, and doing pretty well I thought, I took a rudiments class in college. Suddenly, all of the things I had been playing (and trying to play) made sense. And after another year of actual theory, I could listen to and write down any music I heard. Or I could hum it and write it. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how nice it is to be able to hear something and know exactly what that sound translates to on paper and thusly on your instrument.
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Gary Shepherd
Sierra Session D-10
www.16tracks.com